In his latest ‘cat out of the bag' statements, Gareth Morgan has prompted some predictable responses. Bryan Johnson claims there are no principles contained in the Treaty of Waitangi.
As an ex-school teacher he should know that principles are axiomatic and contained in all treaties, laws and general agreements of mankind.
Article 2 conceded and confirmed Maori would retain ownership of lands, estates, forests and fisheries.
Clearly this results in a partnership. Bruce Moon ‘Te Tiriti o Waitangi - here's some of the history' (The Weekend Sun, January 23), in his extensive, emotive -laden opinion piece uses personal interpretations of language and intensions, whilst rejecting other more professional, qualified and peer-reviewed results.
Mr Moon goes on to claim 'we” are kowtowing to Maori demands.
This is absolute nonsense and emotive provocation, deliberate and intended to stir anti-Maori responses.
Mr Moon completely ignores, indeed denies, the proven abuses that followed the signing of the treaty.
Abuses that have led, in many cases, to the current policies to balance, as much as possible, social welfare and the need to rectify injustice. This does not create privilege as he claims, it does just the opposite.
Robin Bell, Omanawa.
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Ten new coastal rights for tribes
Posted on 30-01-2015 18:24 | By crazyhorse
1. Unlike others, lucky claimant tribes do not have to pay coastal occupation charges under the Resource Management Act or royalties for taking sand and shingle from the beach - Section 60 (b). 2. Tribes gain the sole right to issue permits for watching marine mammals like whales - for a fee, of course. S. 62 (1) (d) 3. Tribes can issue, change, review and revoke a New Zealand coastal policy statement - S. 62 (1) (d).
Ten new coastal rights for tribes
Posted on 30-01-2015 18:25 | By crazyhorse
4. Anyone who gets permission under the Resource Management Act to carry out an activity in a customary marine title area - e.g. building or extending a boatshed on piles like those in Auckland's Orakei Basin and at Paremata and Evans Bay in Wellington, must also get the permission of the tribe that holds customary marine title over the area - again for a fee. If you build such a structure without tribal permission, you can be IMPRISONED for up to two years or fined up to $300,000, of which only 10% of the fine goes to the Crown while the other 90% goes to the tribe, thus giving the tribe a huge financial incentive for vigorous, if not vindictive, policing - S. 69.
Ten new coastal rights for tribes
Posted on 30-01-2015 18:26 | By crazyhorse
5. The tribe can veto DoC proposlas within the customary marine title area - S. 72 (1) - and there is no right of appeal against any refusal of permission by the tribe - S. 73 (3) (b). 6. The tribe can declare any part of its customary marine title area to be "wahi tapu" - S. 78 (1) - to which it can restrict or FORBID public access - Section 26 (2) and (3) and Section 79 (1) (b). "Wahi tapu" means any place alleged to be "sacred to Maori in a traditional, spiritual, religious, ritual or mythological sense" - S. 9. So, allowing "wahi tapu" to be declared on the basis of myth opens the way for the tribe to close off the best fishing grounds and surf breaks to the public for any reason they can dream up on the grounds of a conveniently concocted myth.
Ten new coastal rights for tribes
Posted on 30-01-2015 18:32 | By crazyhorse
7. To enforce a "wahi tapu" ban against the anglers, boaties, surfers, dog walkers and other beach users "trespassing"on these formerly publicly owned areas, tribal wardens can enforce fines of up to $5,000. Yes, a fine of $5,000 for walking on or swiming in an area that used to be publicly owned . 8. A tribe with customary marine title owns all the minerals on or under the seabed - out to 22.2km - except for petroleum, gold, silver and uranium, and can charge royalties for their extraction - money that used to go to the Treasury to help finance things such as health and education but under the Act are now for the sole benefit of the numerically small tribe. these lucky tribal members will get the benefits based on nothing more than happening to be born with a particular (and privileged) bloodline
Ten new coastal rights for tribes
Posted on 30-01-2015 18:35 | By crazyhorse
9. Tribes with customary marine title can also charge royalties to councils and others for taking sand and shingle from the beach - S. 84 (2) (b) 10. The tribe can make its own planning document - S. 62 (1) (g) and S. 85 - which impose obligations on the Director-General of Conservation in formulating policy (S. 90), on the Minister of Fisheries in settling or varying sustainability measures (S. 91), and on regional councils (S. 93). I wonder why this wasn't made public!!. No I don't really, everyone knows why, people would "spew" if they knew the truth.
OPPOSING SEPARATIST PRIVILEGE'S
Posted on 04-02-2015 10:13 | By crazyhorse
Finally enough is enough, Two district councillors and a Rotorua academic have set up a new organisation - the Rotorua Pro-Democracy Society - to protect the democratic rights of all citizens.Sick of the mayor pushing her separatist agenda concerning the undemocratic " Te Arawa partnership" and maori ward seats. The first meeting was invite only, 50 people now open to membership with 100 lined up thus far. Also in New Plymouth 2 "maori candidates running for council, Chris Manukonga has echoed fellow candidate Mary Barnard and said he too is against a Maori ward seat, saying it is undemocratic and degrading for maori not to be elected on "merit", has the "elephant" in the room been finally recognised for what it is, "separatism"!!.
Democratic rights of all?
Posted on 05-02-2015 15:45 | By waxing
Strange sense of democracy and entitlement to claim it on behalf of "all citizens" when after an "invite only" meeting, only 100 are now "lined up" for membership....!!
SORRY WAXY
Posted on 05-02-2015 19:41 | By crazyhorse
I should have said 100 to join now as in straight away with lot's of interest shown, not bad numbers for a short time, I suppose they are all rednecks and racists though eh?, fancy non part maori wanting a say in things, whats NZ coming to!.
tick tick tick
Posted on 05-02-2015 22:58 | By Captain Sensible
I have been asking R Bell for over a year to name exclusive racist privileges that are not available to maori. Tick tick tick.....still waiting.
Racist privilege
Posted on 06-02-2015 08:04 | By robin bell
cap'n. C'mon. Your question is unanswerable and you know it. Reverse the question and you answer it, you can't. The simple FACT is ANY TREATMENT TARGETED TO SPECIFIC NEED can be called selective or in this case racist. In the case of Maori, the need is obvious, check the figures. You won't because you know I'm right. Your matey mate crazy hoss also knows that Maori only sports teams, sports awards, book awards, etc etc. are an entitlement to encourage participation and achievement, without the probability of being swamped by the majority, as in ALL other aspects of life. If you want me to spell out the aspects of separatism in your world cap'n,just ask. Robin Bell.
Obsessed with compensation
Posted on 06-02-2015 15:38 | By crazyhorse
But it happened 170, Years ago," let it go", none of us were around then, there are no full maori left, I blame it on the scotch ancestry they are always keen on making a dollar, maybe Dutch as well,1/3% Dutch 1/322% maori 1/3% Scotch, maybe a little Indian too, gawd now I know what the trouble is, it's not the part "maori bit" that's treaty troughing off the NZ public, it's the other bits, sorry Peter !!. how could I have got it so wrong.
100 about right
Posted on 07-02-2015 15:28 | By waxing
Crazy - I think 100 is about right and represents the total number of people who agree with your opinions. In a democracy, I shall accord them the respect your numbers deserve.
Still getting it wrong Crazy
Posted on 07-02-2015 15:35 | By waxing
So you think all the injustices only happened 170 years ago? Far from from it. In fact in the early days, the Treaty acted to protect against injustices. But those wanting land to sell to settlers did not want to be constrained by it. Yet the Colonial Office still told them they had to and Queen Victoria gave a written instruction to those administering New Zealand that "you will honourably and scrupulously uphold the Treaty of Waitangi". The settlers response? They took over the administration of New Zealand and gained administrative independence of New Zealand so they could change the laws to their advantage (and create injustices). And so it continued - a long list, up to the present day, if you are really interested in finding out.
WAX LAND
Posted on 07-02-2015 20:07 | By crazyhorse
Land sales back then "were" recorded, why don't you go back and have a look, maori even went to OZ and sold land, the same land in alot of cases that had already been sold to someone else, there is a record, unless it has been "revised", maori could not get rid of it quick enough, you make it sound as though every transaction was maori being ripped off when, in fact maori in alot of the cases were doing very well out of it, especially if they could sell it to 4 or 5 people at once, sweet as then, but now?.
know your history crazy
Posted on 08-02-2015 10:15 | By waxing
Do you know your New Zealand history crazy? Do you know what changes happened in the legal requirements for the sale of Maori land and how it was recorded for the 30 years after the Treaty was signed? If so, tell us and we can see where you stand against the facts. I think you don't know and prefer to just make emotional generalisations designed to stir things up. Prove me wrong if you can.
Cobblers, crazy.
Posted on 08-02-2015 12:14 | By robin bell
If as you claim land " sales" were recorded, how come at one point pre -treaty the collective purchasers claimed to have "acquired" land well in excess of the TOTAL land mass of N.Z. Think about that. Lords Melbourne and Glenelg, decided the Government had to intervene to " ensure that colonisation was regulated and that land transactions that defrauded Maori were stopped" Didn't happen of course, but at least they tried. It's all in the history crazy, you should read it some day. It's much more interesting than the garbage 'you' read and write on the internet.Robin Bell.
OOOPS!
Posted on 08-02-2015 13:42 | By crazyhorse
New Zealand has 26.8-million hectares of land. Around 1.2-million hectares were confiscated during the 1860s wars (much of which was returned at the time). There is approximately 1.47 million hectares of Maori land. Everything else, being 24.13-million hectares, was sold. Chiefs sold the land. They did not lose the land. Between 1868 and 1995, Ngai Tahu had received five settlements of what started out as a single complaint. What is more, Ngai Tahu, like Waikato-Tainui, negotiated a top-up relativity clause, which means their latest settlement just keeps on giving. Moreover, Ngai Tahu had sold much of the South Island before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, and the treaty commitment to investigate pre-1840 sales enabled chiefs to sell the land all over again while keeping the proceeds of the earlier sales.
History what history
Posted on 08-02-2015 13:58 | By crazyhorse
Quote Bell,""It's all in the history crazy,"" Not the history I read, I have just been enlightened by a new book Cannons Creek To Waitangi, Te Pakeha's treaty claim for equality. A splendid read Bell, From some one who grew up in Porirua east with mostly maori and polynesian friends and talks of the wedge now being driven between the us and them"s of NZ, also explaining just as all the other history books do on how simple the treaty is to understand, well for some of us anyway, you and the waxman should read this, nice pictures and easily understood, a good book to "begin" with, a sort of NZ history for the "Dummies""he he.
Ngai Tahu
Posted on 09-02-2015 11:04 | By robin bell
Sold 35.4 million acres to the crown,with the proviso the 10% be set aside for tribal use. Never carried out,leaving Ngai Tahu landless and unable to continue their enterprise of farming etc. When the crown finally accepted the crime committed, the offered paltry compensation on a "take it or leave it" basis. ALL the detail you need is in legitimate history crazy, not the inventive c**p you are obsessed with. Try it, it is much more satisfying. Alternatively just ask, I, waxing or Peter will fill you in. Robin Bell.
The driven wedge,
Posted on 09-02-2015 12:38 | By robin bell
is primarily being driven by you crazy, and of course other bitter people. It was all predicted by Lord Justice Robin Cooke in the 1960s. Your phantom author may well have grown up in Porirua, I on the other hand have lived in a Maori family for over 50 years, so I know nothing, the phantom knows all. If you ask crazy I will relate to you how my wifes grandmother was defrauded of ALL of her land during the great depression, makes very interesting reading. Robin Bell.
You just can't get it right can you crazy
Posted on 09-02-2015 12:50 | By waxing
Selective history from non-professional historians that distorts, covers up, rewrites history. Your record is incredibly consistent crazy - just a load of rubbish designed to fuel trouble. You never respond to the questions asked of you or the challenges out to you. You can't even name your favourite history of New Zealand. Pathetic is a kind description. You deserve only our pity.
Modern injustice crazyhorse
Posted on 09-02-2015 13:21 | By Peter Dey
crazyhorse is extremely resentful at what he believes is privileged treatment for Maori. However the Government has now made about $2 billion worth of Treaty settlements with Maori. Treaty settlements return about 10% compensation for the value of land taken. This means that the New Zealand Government and taxpayers are sitting on about $18 billion of funds that they are not entitled to. It is Pakeha not Maori still receiving the greatest privilege.
crazy's not interested in modern injustices
Posted on 09-02-2015 16:47 | By waxing
Peter - crazy's just not interested in modern injustices, unfortunately as he might otherwise know and understand something. Whether it is still the government profiteering from long-term commercial leases which they sublease while paying the Wellington Tenths Trust (as landowners) only a pittance, or Maori allowed to swim in the local public pool only on the day it is cleaned, or the hailed Maori Battalion not getting the same privileges awarded to Pakeha on their return from WWII, or the rights accorded to Pakeha under the Public Works Act that weren't extended to Maori and effectively became 20th century land confiscations... the list goes on and on.
SELECTIVE HISTORY
Posted on 09-02-2015 18:22 | By crazyhorse
Everyone here is talking about my history and where I get it from, also that I avoid answering questions,we have not heard a peep about Paul Moon saying the Waitangi Tribunal is distorting New Zealand history Maori chiefs who signed the Treaty of Waitangi did not cede sovereignty, thats a pretty big call from one of "your own", that "lie" was so big even he couldn't stomach it!!.
@ R Bell
Posted on 10-02-2015 00:22 | By Captain Sensible
Come on Robin are you seriously saying there are no race based privileges for maori only? At last count there was 169 of them, Take our local port company...they have a scholarship that is available to anybody(No race based favours, all kiwis can apply) .....and another only for maori. Non-maori need not apply. Don't believe me? Ask the CEO.
Wisechief
Posted on 10-02-2015 11:43 | By Wise Chief
Obviously Porangi Hoiho hasn't heard of all the Maori lease rent money stemming from 1802 accord signed in Hawai by King Kumeamea, NZ Crown has locked away in overseas accounts. Sums are well above what this country owes to offshore British Bankers who control this country via their OZ Banks & now Private Prisons. It appears from studies concerning Colonization what happened here in NZ with regards to Maori marginalisation is standard form and no amount or dodging blame via Anglo Saxons resident here escapes these brutal facts. Its nothing to be nasty about as some would have it via turning to attack Maori all over again as though it was their own complete fault when successive legislation to this day reinforces same obnoxious policy mandates.I don't understand why all the bruhaha at this critical time when YOU ALL have lost the PLANET? So what's the point here?
why so upset
Posted on 10-02-2015 13:29 | By waxing
I have no problem with positive discrimination. It has always occurred in society across all sorts of different areas, cultures, religions, nationalities. And I have no problem in particular with it in terms of Maori since there is such a real cost to all of New Zealand as a result of the low socioeconomic status of Maori, directly attributable to so many Treaty injustices. But I'd be really interested in how you think about other examples of positive discrimination - Marist scholarships, Catholic schools, Greek hospital funding, Freemason housing developments. I don't have any problem with them at all, but I assume you do (if you are consistent and "sensible" that is).
Captain not so,
Posted on 10-02-2015 13:50 | By robin bell
The Port company is essentially a private company, as such can award scholarships to any one they choose. That the C.E.O and co see the need and recognise that young Maori benefit from assistance is to be applauded. Don't hear you lot grizzling about targeted spending for other groups in society. Oh!! that's right I forgot Maori need to forget being Maori. Silly me. Meanwhile cap'n, why not tell your gasping public about your hypocrisy. Robin Bell.
Crazyhorse, coastal rights are ownership
Posted on 10-02-2015 16:07 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is resentful of Maori coastal rights, but the new law simply restores to Maori some of the rights that they originally had before ownership was wrongfully taken from them. Ownership returned is not a privilege, and the law still does not restore full Maori ownership. Crazyhorse is genuinely crazy to be resentful about genuine redress.
, coastal rights are ownership
Posted on 10-02-2015 18:12 | By crazyhorse
Stop dodging the question, if these 10 new coastal rights are so good and dandy for NZ why were they brought in through the back door, why were they not presented out in the open. I see "honest" johny key at it again calling labours policies for maori to have their own laws, as sparatist geeeez! even you would have to laugh at that Pete, eh with all the racist legislation brought in by National, such as, the 10 new coastal rights for tribes, by the way how do they prove ownership, I have seen the list of people turned down so far and the only names not on it were yours and ding dongs, another troughing free for all ah boys!.
why so upset , huh?
Posted on 10-02-2015 19:49 | By crazyhorse
your saying no maori belong to these organisations, is that exactly what your saying???.
@ R Bell
Posted on 10-02-2015 20:02 | By Captain Sensible
So you are fine with a private company discriminating against 85% of kiwis by denying them a scholarship on the basis of their race. And somehow that makes you not racist!!!! If only you were clever enough to se the irony!
coastal rights are ownership
Posted on 10-02-2015 22:00 | By crazyhorse
Did maori own land pre european, not in any context that would allow them to assert owner ship today. Prior to european settlement maori were tribal and nothing was beyond "taking"as at the point of a spear or club,by anyone powerful enough to take it, if you maori that is!. this included humans,as in slaves, maori broke the treaty here as well keeping slaves after signing the treat and promising to release them. Taking, also included killing woman and children, there was believe it or not any punishment for all this ""except!!,perhaps having it taken back by someone more violent than you, it's called "utu", what the treaty tried to stop, slavery, abolishing infanticide, abolishing cannibalism, introduction of law, yes troughers, granted the rights of British subjects. troughers bounce from the english version to the maori treaty as fancy takes them, what about the littlewood document, ask damage orange??
Coastal Rights.
Posted on 11-02-2015 08:12 | By robin bell
Are not ownership,they are protected rights for use of and the right to be consulted, the right to levy the use of assets. The claim that Maori did not "own Land " is ridiculous. The British recognised this when Maori signed the treaty. Why else, the Pre emption clause? Why else, the reference to possessions. The first version was drawn up by the British then translated into Maori. Both versions were signed, but not by all. The so called "Littlewood treaty" can never be a treaty, because it was never signed by anyone, ask Paul Moon. Robin Bell.
the right to levy
Posted on 11-02-2015 15:36 | By YOGI BEAR
So Robun, you are saying that "the right to levy" means Maori can collect a fee for others to go to the beach/foreshore? Is hat what you are saying? That is not recorded in the real treaty Te Tiriti o Waitangi .
So boring
Posted on 11-02-2015 15:42 | By waxing
Clearly crazy you have no intellectual understanding of positive discrimination or coastal rights. It is of course much more comfortable to hide behind prejudice and you do so repeatedly. Mind you, "sensible" keeps you company in opposing positive discrimination when it is Maori but clearly not when it is any other group. So there is no point trying to discuss anything other than to correct one thing - the Treaty was sought by Maori with the British (as opposed to the five other nations that wanted to have NZ) so that law and order could be introduced to Kororareka which was plagued by murder, rape, drunken violence by Pakeha sealers and whalers. But I guess you'll pretend that that didn't happen either....
WAXY SAYS, TREATY OF
Posted on 11-02-2015 16:51 | By crazyhorse
Waitangi was sought by maori because of, wait for it, So that law and order could be introduced to Kororareka which was plagued by murder, rape,and drunken violence by Pakeha sealers and whalers. That's the best apologist explanation for why the treaty was sort so far, I know you spend all your time on your knees, but shuffle the way to the front of the class, brilliant Lol!. It was in 1831 the height of the musket wars that 13 Ngapuhi chiefs who were awake to the possibility of extinction through tribal warfare or getting their "beans" from the french wrote to King William IV begging for protection, the poms were initially reluctant to extend "their empire"and for 8 years contemplated what they should do actually one might say if they had come to the "party earlier thousands of """MAORI""lives may have been saved, waxy uses typical troughing tactics.
PART 1 NGAPUHI LETTER TO
Posted on 11-02-2015 16:59 | By crazyhorse
KING WILLIAM — We, the chiefs of New Zealand assembled at this place, called the Kerikeri, write to thee, for we hear that thou art the great chief of the other side of thewater, since the many ships which come to our land are from thee. We are a people without possessions. We have nothing but timber, flax, pork and potatoes, we sell these things, however, to your people, and then we see property of the Europeans. It is only thy land which is liberal towards us. From thee also come the Missionaries who teach us to believe on Jehovah God, and on Jesus Christ His Son. We have heard that the tribe of Marian [the French] is at hand coming to take away our land, therefore we pray thee to become our friend and the guardian of these Islands,
PART 2 NGAPUHI LETTER
Posted on 11-02-2015 17:01 | By crazyhorse
TO KING WILLIAM, lest through the teazing of other tribes should come war to us, and lest strangers should come and take away our land. And if any of thy people should be troublesome or vicious towards us (for some persons are living here who have run away from ships), we pray thee to be angry with them that they may be obedient, lest the anger of the people of this land fall upon them. This letter is from us the chiefs of the natives of New Zealand: Warerahi chief of Paroa Rewa chief of Waimate Patuone chief of Hokianga Nene chief of Hokianga Kekeao chief of Ahuahu Titore chief of Kororarika Tamoranaga chief of Taiamai Ripe chief of Mapere Hara chief of Ohaiawai Atuahaere chief of Kaikohe Moetara chief of Pakanai Matangi chief of Waima Taunai chief of Hutakura Spot anything interesting there? "WAXY"
coastal rights
Posted on 11-02-2015 19:02 | By crazyhorse
Can't you read Bell, read all ten "NEW"coastal rights for part maori only, they are all there down below, but Bell refuses to acknowledge the truth, a true trougher in action for all the campers to see. These new coastal rights pushed through the back door by the separatist seeking National Gov't will stop K1W1'S going to the beach, unless, you guessed it "koha, happening already on 90 mile beach and lake Taupo, and look whats happening with building permits on ever increasing "cultural sites in Auckland thanks to the councils Independent Maori Statutory Board, ask Bob Jones, parasites attaching themselves to the other 85% of K1W1'S for a free ride a hand out, money for nothing, treaty troughing, the treaty "industry" in full swing a well oiled money making machine gobbling up as many rights of K1W1's as it is money, apartheid New Zealand here they come, troughers!.
Wisechief
Posted on 11-02-2015 19:04 | By Wise Chief
Our small team over the years who worked diligently without funding from both Maori & Pakeha constantly encountered stiff opposition when seeking to establish offshore reefs both underwater & floating to grow Agar Seaweed. The very fact I have mentioned it here will generate a negative response by some locals who are anathema towards Maori doing such stuff even when its out of view & out of way of commercial fishermen shipping etc. This staunch opposition has nothing to do with venture, but pure hatred of those who run councils and government system for which some here are the public voice of. If this were not the case comments would not be published. Oddly even though we the initiators are Maori/Euro we to are very wary of both sides when it comes to constructing something of the size of 100 km long by 2km out in deep waters.
crazyhorse, NZ started in 1840
Posted on 11-02-2015 20:32 | By Peter Dey
We re celebrating the signing of the Treaty in 1840. Before 1840 we did not have a New Zealand Government. Whatever Maori did or asked for before 1840 did not have to be dealt with by the Pakeha Government apart from fraudulent land claims. Going on about things being bad for some Maori made no difference.
There are no new coastal rights,
Posted on 11-02-2015 22:06 | By robin bell
they have existed since time began.Maori had them at the signing of the treaty, they still have them. Koha is voluntary,not enforcable by law, unless Privately owned land is crossed,same applies to any coastal land owned by Pakeha,it happens all over N.Z. Maori land has been abused for generations, at last they have said enough. No decent Pakeha need fear anything. Foreign domiciled s***t stirrers being the exception. Robin Bell.
Waxing
Posted on 12-02-2015 02:33 | By Kenworthlogger
What do you think happened when one Maori tribe beat another in war. Yes murder, rape drunken violence.... Sound familiar waxing??? Your so one eyed!!!!
The opposite of privilege
Posted on 12-02-2015 08:29 | By YOGI BEAR
That I think is where you have yourself confused and some Robin, the truth of it is as Crazed Steed puts it. Nothing else to add to the truth of it there mate. But of course you will avoid the truth, look at something else in a complete different light, a bit of the shades of grey thing for you rather than black and white and so simple, just the truth right.
BLAME THE WHITE SETTLERS
Posted on 12-02-2015 09:15 | By crazyhorse
These wars have been described as a prime example of fatal impact theory in practice. In the wake of contact with Europeans, M?ori are said to have grabbed as many guns as they could and killed as many of each other as they could. The assumption was that the introduction of European technology alone was responsible for these wars, the "truth"is M?ori had always fought rival kin groups. Historian Gavin McLean observes that men fought for ‘land, for resources, for women and for the sheer hell of it.' Warfare was both ‘an integral part of the Maori political system' and a ‘legitimate cultural response to offences or crimes of any kind'. Conflict increased as the population grew. Resources were depleted and insults demanding a response multiplied. The victors gained land and booty and increased their mana (status). The losers sometimes had to migrate to a less desirable, unpopulated area
crazy - try and understand what you write
Posted on 12-02-2015 12:16 | By waxing
Try reading your Nga Puhi letter. It confirms fears of other countries trying to take over NZ, especially France. Also fears of lawlessness by Pakeha. This was in 1831. By 1835, 34 Chiefs (The Confederation of United Tribes) had signed a declaration of the Independence of New Zealand to deal with ongoing colonial pressures from France, Holland, USA, Russia and Germany, all eager for whale and seal oil and new territory to settle. By 1839, another 18 chiefs had signed the declaration, but only Britain had recognised it. Meanwhile the lawlessness of Kororareka, where no law and order existed, and the troubles had increased manifoldly. This is the background to the Treaty. Not all the stuff that you, yogi and kenny want to stir up to divide this country. You are not worth wasting words on and continuing discussion only provides a vehicle for your prejudices.
Reality is still waxing
Posted on 12-02-2015 13:10 | By YOGI BEAR
Crazy Steed is right again. The Maori tribes (pre 1840 especially) were looking for any advantage that they could find to take out any other tribe, take the small bits of land occupied, enslave some, kill most males, some ended up in the pot, enslave the women and so on. This was the normal mode of operation for Maori over the few hundred years that they were in NZ. It was all about power, control and ego. Seeking to take what the other had and prepared to do "anything" to get it. it is well known and accepted that Maori were desperate to align with the English, the prime reason was self preservation, a number of chiefs and others realised that with guns available it would not be long before Maori would self eliminate. Robin this is part of the "Real" history of NZ, get up with the play.
Using blame as a weapon,
Posted on 12-02-2015 13:25 | By robin bell
is crazy-hosses way of deflecting responsibility. No-one is blaming anyone, but the facts remain.Captain Cook estimated 250,000 Maori. With the irresponsible introduction of firearms and booze these number dropped to less than 100,000 by the time the treaty was signed.It happened all over the,then British Empire. It remains a blight on British history and early N.Z. history. Britain recently paid $100,million to those they abused in Kenya,less than 60 yrs ago. Compensation paid to Maori is a pittance,compared to the damage inflicted. Many Maori will tell you sincerely its not about the money, its about recognition and the future for their children. Crazy-hoss needs to retire in peace,yogi needs to go tend his pot-plants. N.Z. doesn't need them. Robin Bell.
KAWHARU'S T O W
Posted on 12-02-2015 14:09 | By crazyhorse
Do you know campers there are not "2" treaty's the English and the Maori version, not 3 with the Littlewood draft. No there are 4, the last one "modified" by Professor Kawharu,changing the meaning of "taonga"from property procured at the point of a spear, a popular way of shopping back in the "good old days" or property or, goods,to,from 1989 taonga turned to "treasure" opening up the treaty meaning to all and everything wind, air waves, water, you name it, taonga. The odd unethicle change is, he was a member of the Waitangi tribunal, and, a claimant, hello any bells ringing, guess what the tribunal has based all their interpretations on this since, remember campers the treaty was signed in 1840, not 1989. Did the Gov't question this, did anyone know it happened, after all the impact the treaty now has on the average K1W1 is "enormous", not a wor
crazyhorse, you confuse opinion and fact
Posted on 12-02-2015 14:51 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse's opinion that there are 4 Treaties is only opinion not fact. The fact is that Governor William Hobson sent two official versions of the Treaty to his superiors. These two versions are in the NZ National Archives and copied in the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. This is recorded on page 272 of Claudia Orange's book THE TREATY OF WAITANGI. Versions such as that by Hugh Kawharu are simply help for greater understanding. They in no way change the two official versions that we have.
KAWHARU'S T O W
Posted on 12-02-2015 15:22 | By YOGI BEAR
Ding-ding-ding... that Bell is deafeningly loud Crazed Steed. Actually there's one real TOW, the Maori one. The Littlewood draft is a true and correct translation to English of the Maori TOW (you know the one that matters, that one that was signed), that Freeman version is a complete fabrication, it never existed as at 6/2/1840 as Freeman created if after 6/2/1840. That means it was not and possible to be signed 6/2/1840, that is a simple concept to get your head around now isn't it. The next wee problem is the "creative" contrived via making up new self beneficial meanings for Maori words. "Taonga" has had a fundamental change in meaning from 1840, the word was written down in 1840, the TOW was signed then also, the only meaning legal possible to use is that in use in 1840, anything else is a fraud upon the NZ taxpayer/citizens.
YOGI BEAR the Freeman version was official
Posted on 12-02-2015 17:19 | By Peter Dey
YGOI BEAR the Freeman version was the version that Governor Hobson sent as an official document to his superiors on 6 2 1840. Governor Hobson chose to have two official Treaties, one English one Maori. He was in charge and that was his decision. Read page 272 of THE TREATY OF WAITANGI by Claudia Orange. The Littlewood version is clearly a working draft used to translate Hobson's English version into Maori. Hobson never gave it official status.
At odds with each other and
Posted on 12-02-2015 17:24 | By robin bell
of course the truth.Crazy-hoss and his mate yogi have told so many untruths, they have lost complete track of the real truth. Hobsons secretary Freeman prepared notes of a treaty,rejected by Busby who offered to improve it. This was on the 3rd of February. On the 4th Busby presented it to Williams for translation. On the the 5th it was signed by around 40 chiefs.On the 6th or a few days later a copy in English was prepared for Governor Gipps in N.S.Wales. Henry Wlliams did the translation and authenticated it with the words " I certify that the above is AS literal a translation of the T.O.W. as the idiom of the language will admit of.PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE LONDON. CO2097/7,13-15. Robin Bell.
YOGI BEAR taonga is valued possession
Posted on 12-02-2015 17:27 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR, Bruce Moon and others who do not speak Maori just make themselves look ridiculous when they argue with fluent speakers about the meaning of taonga. Picking the opinion of one person, Hongi Hika, proves nothing. The Williams dictionary first published in 1844 gives the meaning of taonga as valued possession with the haka as an example. Hugh Kawharu has spent his whole life speaking Maori and studying Maori history and culture. People who criticise him but cannot speak Maori are delusional.
Can't keep his hands off
Posted on 12-02-2015 18:58 | By crazyhorse
Sir Hugh Kawharu, who was both a tribunal member and a claimant representing Ngati Whatua o Orakei, re-translated the treaty from the original Maori back to English and in so doing redefined two words - 'kawanatanga” and 'rangatiratanga”-- to create a treaty that confirms Maori sovereignty over all things Maori while giving to the Crown limited power to control new settlers, which is far away from the 1840 meaning. He also wrote that if "tino rangatiratanga" meant "unqualified exercise" of chieftainship this must "emphasise to a chief the Queen's intention to give them complete control according to their customs", I wonder whether those customs would include "slavery and cannibalism"!
Treaty abuses and moving forward
Posted on 12-02-2015 20:56 | By Murray.Guy
R Bell writes, "Mr Moon completely ignores, indeed denies, the proven abuses that followed the signing of the treaty." Personally, I doubt we'll (all) ever agree on what the Treaty said, it's intent, but what I don't doubt is that their would have been abuses of the Treaty by Maori signatories, all signatories. For me it's past time the Treaty and it's constant re-interpretation was put to bed and as a nation we moved forward based on 'doing whats right' for today and tomorrow, for you and for me. I've yet to be aware of any relationship that on being derailed is put back on the tracks by lawyers and courts, participants who live in, cling on to, a disputed past to define the future. Let go and move on, or dig a deeper hole and die in it!
unqualified success
Posted on 13-02-2015 10:01 | By crazyhorse
yet once again we have proven the race based waitangi tribunal is corrupt, making back door changes to the treaty,no not adding more "understanding" as Dey likes to put it,how much more evedence do we need, isn't in frightening though that all this happens by stealth, we find out after the event, when it's to late,got to look at the quality or agenda of the people governing us, or who used to govern us, honest Jeff Palmer is a great example as is Christine Finlayson, also someone worth keeping your eye on is our chief justice Sian Elias, more of that soon!.
Wisechief
Posted on 13-02-2015 10:12 | By Wise Chief
I agree wholeheartedly with Murray Guys sentiments and we must move on and do so fast & leave past behind.WHY? Simply because we don't have much of a future to look forwards to now the JET STREAM oscillations have changed with expected devastating weather changes resulting and now being experienced worldwide including here. Be assured this New World we have now entered into is not what scientist predicted nor could they because they do not have the divine gift of prophecy to know unlike myself who already has seen what is now coming to pass. And yes I did try very very hard under constant attacks and derision to warn as many as I could given the limited means available. Be duly warned be one Maori or Pakeha or other Dermal Hue we are in deep deep s**t and the process is irreversible for us very primitive humanoids.
Moving forward Murray,
Posted on 13-02-2015 10:40 | By robin bell
what you will find,is those who distort,deny and manipulate the facts,do so for selfish and political reasons. Never the less the facts remain. Any abuses by individuals, Maori or European were and are dealt with by the law. When the "law" and those who administer it (the crown) commit abuses,they do so in the name of all. They are the abuses I refer to,but then I think you know that. You will also find Murray, that most people are moving on, the exceptions being those who you seem to ignore in these columns. Those who write hate speech and bring out my reactionary instincts. Right wing extremism will solve nothing. Robin Bell.
HOLOCAUST AT PARIHAKA
Posted on 13-02-2015 14:51 | By crazyhorse
The Waitangi tribunal described the sacking of Parihaka as a ""holocaust" same as in nazi germany with the poor jewish people, now Parahihaka must have been a terrible event, thousands of innocent maori killed, because it "was" a"{holocaust}". I have looked everywhere and I can't find out how many innocent maori lost their lives, can anyone fill me in on the holocaust the tribunal say's occurred?, hang on I have something here, no sorry, just a story about a kid getting trod on by a horse, seems to be some mix up, any idea's campers?,imagine being an elderly Jewish person that had actually seen or been in the holocaust, the real one, how would they feel reading this absolutely made up treaty troughing garbage for our history,yuk, disgusting!.
The Freeman version never existed when mattered
Posted on 13-02-2015 16:15 | By YOGI BEAR
The Freeman version did not even exist on 6/2/1840 and was not the document signed, the Maori TOW was. Unless you live in the land to myths and legends like Peter, I suspect you do, then whatever the dreams are they just wont happen as no basis at all ever!
FUTURE SCENARIO??
Posted on 13-02-2015 19:15 | By crazyhorse
"Treaty troughers" initiative for a "brand New" History Of Aotearoa”. to be "edited" by someone such as Sir Hugh Kawharu or Dr. Danny Keenan. "new"revised yet again history from a "Maori perspective"!. It would have the objective of conditioning the up-coming generations to believe a fabricated history, according to the (discredited) Waitangi Tribunal. (The researchers for the book, might also have difficulty getting paid for their work, until they had portrayed the Maori as the aggrieved party). Written records of who said what would also be ‘reinterpreted' to fit. How much easier it would be in twenty years time, for Maori claims to keep "appearing", if the old history was replaced by the new history. To achieve this, Maori would pump the Education system full of ""new history""from their paid revisionist 'historians re revising the already revised fairy tale of the "atrocities" suffered because of wicked white settlers.
The duplicity of yogi
Posted on 13-02-2015 20:24 | By robin bell
bare.There is no Freeman Treaty.Freeman was Hobsons secretary,He simply wrote what he was told to write.Hence the name. There are two treaties,one in English,one in Maori.Hence the different texts. Both bear signatures, 49 chiefs signed the English version. Hence the need to harmonise the two. Hence the need to establish PRINCIPLES,yogi and co have none,so don't understand the need. Hence the establishment of the one N.Z. foundation established to destroy race relations and undermine democracy,by double dealing deception. Robin Bell.
Sorry YOGI BEAR, facts contradict you
Posted on 13-02-2015 21:26 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR, it is recorded in Claudia Orange's book THE TREATY OF WAITANGI on page 272 that Governor Hobson sent, what is now the official English version of the Treaty, to his superiors in Sydney on February 6 1840. This document is in the British archives. This document is the one that you now call the Freeman version. You cannot undo the decision that Governor Hobson made. That is why the Freeman version is the only official English version.
KIDDING AIN'T YA.
Posted on 14-02-2015 08:51 | By crazyhorse
Quote Peter Dey, Versions such as that by Hugh Kawharu are simply help for greater understanding. They in no way change the two official versions that we have. Once more from the beginning, Kawharu was not only a member of the Waitangi tribunal, he was a ""claimant"", he, as in alone, no help or advice from Gov't or researchers, changed the meaning of‘ kawanatangato to mean they were just governed the did not cede sovereignty . Kawharu was on a roll now so decided to grease the tracks for the gravey train a "little more"". Kawharu now retranslated "te tino rangatiratanga" remember campers he was a "claimant and a member of the tribunal" in 1840 te tino rangatiratanga simply broken down meant maori kept their land and possessions, but Kawharu changed that to unqualified exercise of their chieftainship,swipe of the pen,maori "SOVEREIGNTY'
THE LITTLEWOOD TREATY
Posted on 14-02-2015 09:23 | By crazyhorse
In September 1992 someone "leaked" news to the media that a Treaty document had been found by the Littlewood family of Pukekohe, Auckland District. Statements at the time, by the National Archives experts, shows that they realised the potentialities and probable far reaching significance of this document. It showed every sign of being the long lost Treaty draft, much sought after for 150-years. Despite this, the National Archives and related authorities went silent and suppressed the document, which find had "irritated them" when news was made public. These many years later they still have not performed their duty to the people of New Zealand and have never admitted that they have in their possession the final English draft of the Treaty of Waitangi. To do so would severely curtail the activities and huge plundering potential of the grievance industry, which relies on the wording of the wrong treaty!.
PETE'S PET
Posted on 14-02-2015 09:35 | By crazyhorse
Claudia Orange was the first Historian to see the Littlewood draft after it was discovered. Her first words on viewing the document were to the effect of: 'This will be embarrassing”. Since then she has gone out of her way to discredit the draft, often acts as if it doesn't exist When it is pointed out that the Littlewood draft is dated before the date of the Treaty, the best she can come up with is that Hobson must have made a mistake on the date. She did not even mention it in her lastest book on the Treaty. A very strange thing for a Historian of her repute, to ignore a document that was the greatest find since the original Treaty itself! She continues to deny and discredit the Littlewood draft, even though experts have verified it's authenticity.
Crazy's pet,
Posted on 14-02-2015 15:51 | By robin bell
Ross Baker of one N.Z.foundation "fame" attempts to assassinate the character of Dr Claudia Orange.In doing so he assumes absolute certainty in his claims.The so-called Littlewood document can never be validated. Henry Littlewood did not arrive in N.Z. until 1842 or 1847 (Littlewood family,N.Z.Herald 12-9-92.) It contains no signatures, the date was not verified. The "logic" proffered by Baker is highly suspect,dates on contract (treaties) are added at signing,not when drafts are drawn.He interprets Williams words "as close as the IDIOM of the language would admit" as a mirror image, absolutely not so. Idiom is defined thus, "A peculiarity of language", "to make ones own" as much as Baker (crazy) desires a conspiracy to exploit, he can't have it. Robin Bell.
Good one robin
Posted on 14-02-2015 23:11 | By YOGI BEAR
So we agree the Freeman rubbish is indeed rubbish? So that means of course that the Waitangi Treaty Act 1975 is wrong as that is the one that is part of that Act and is a major reason for rort now. The other important factor here is that the Freeman treaty was not signed by Hobson. So if no one signed if for the Queen then there is no contract (treaty).
Littlewood draft
Posted on 14-02-2015 23:16 | By YOGI BEAR
The inconvienient truth yet again gets in the way of a good story, know doubt Claudia Orange and her fellow thieves could indeed be "historians" all be it self propagating, seeking glory for a story. Seeking pay for a yarn to justify her masters getting in on the gravy train. How sick it is.
crazyhorse, you avoid the main fact
Posted on 15-02-2015 10:14 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, Claudia Orange is only the messenger. The message that you avoid is that Governor Hobson, who was in charge of the Treaty of Waitangi, sent an official copy of our present English version of the Treaty to his superiors on February 6 1840. He also never used any other English version himself. So we have two official versions of the Treaty authorised by Governor Hobson. That is recorded in British archives as researched by Claudia Orange. Nobody denies this. It is fact. The Littlewood document is a working draft without official status.
Crazyhorse, no kidding Hugh Kawharu speaks Maori
Posted on 15-02-2015 10:31 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, monolingual Pakeha like Bruce Moon are just being ridiculous trying to debate the meaning of the Maori version of the Treaty of Waitangi with fluent Maori speakers. Most fluent speakers of Maori seem to agree with Hugh Kawharu. Monolingual Pakeha trawling ignorantly through old writings do not realise how silly their behaviour is, when they say that Hugh Kawharu is wrong in his understanding of Maori language and history.
KAWHARU'S TREATY!
Posted on 15-02-2015 17:54 | By crazyhorse
Kawharu changed the meaning in the treaty to serve himself and the troughing industry, it's there for all to see but you, where else could this happen, once again, he was a member of the waitangi tribunal and a "claimant",surely you can't look at this and say that's perfectly alright, because it bloody isn't!. It is not up to one individual with his hand in the "trough" to change a document to suit, to grease the tracks, to make the trough more accessible.
HOLOCAUST AT PARIHAKA
Posted on 15-02-2015 18:04 | By crazyhorse
For the life of me Peter I can't find out how many "innocent" maori died at Parihaka, it was a holocaust Peter, like that suffered by the Jewish people in world war one,we know this because we have been told on many occasions so it must be true The then leader of the maori party the Sioux indian Tariana Turia gave a speech on it, many maori "elite" bring it up all the time, tell us all how many died in this terrible "holocaust" for Maori,
WHY DON'T TREATYIST'S
Posted on 15-02-2015 18:15 | By crazyhorse
Speak of this type of NZ history. The Chatham Island Morioris were true pacifists, they wore the white feather as a sign of peace, in 1835 these peaceful islands were invaded by Te Ati Awa subtribes from Taranaki, Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama who proceeded to commit "genocide on a colossal scale, this was not the first time , as Ngati Toa had allowed them to annihilate Ngati Ira at port Nicholson. The invasion was well documented in Kings book "Moriori", a hundred or more Moriori woman were laid out on the beach and stakes were driven through their bodies the men treated the same, King gives eye witness accounts of how bodies were prepared to be eaten. It was not long after the Moriori population of about 1600 was reduced to 101, a real"HOLOCAUST", I also wonder where the white feathers came from at the holocaust at Parihake
TROUGHERS PERKS
Posted on 15-02-2015 21:36 | By crazyhorse
Treaty troughers are moving into councils for extra revenue. In Auckland after troughers were given the go ahead in 2010 The Auckland councils amalgamated on November 1, 2010. Amalgamation there: ? Hiked rates by 8 percent in the first year. ? Increased debt by 30 percent in year one. ? Set up powerless local boards. ? Set up a Maori board that produced a $295-million spending plan for Maori. NEXT HAWKES BAY Amalgamating the five existing councils in Hawke's Bay into one super council with five local boards and a Maori board all based in Napier" will" Increase rates. Replace Hastings' 14 councillors with six councillors and nine local board members. ? Introduce a Maori board and race-based spending.and we all know where that will go, new cars, wedding dresses, paying off credit cards, looking after "whanau".
Corruption,
Posted on 16-02-2015 08:08 | By robin bell
Baker now attempts to assassinate the character of Tariana Turia. When tariana reffered to the holocaust at Parihaka, she was correct. For those people it was devastation. Roads and fencing pushed through illegally, peaceful resistance met with brute force,men arrested and brutalised in the very same manner as carried out years later in India, when Gandi resisted in the same way. You may not see that as an holocaust Baker but most do. At Te WHITI'S TRIAL even the British had to admit that even the 10,000 hectares set aside for Maori was not carried out,leaving them to starve. No doubt you are PROUD of it all Baker (crazy) planks don't come any thicker !!. Robin Bell.
Wisechief
Posted on 16-02-2015 09:57 | By Wise Chief
You are correct Porangi Hoiho with regards to Chatham Islands genocide episode which many Maori today know little of and it is same group that once obtaining muskets decided to come slaughter small sickly whanau groupings scattered throughout the BOP and Central Plateau and other area's. The survivors in turn when gaining muskets did same. I am appalled at the amount of lies accepted as supposed truths by a self serving Waitangi Tribunal who favour their own arms length relatives. Some of my own immediate relatives who are hostile to our small group deceiving the tribunal with their claims. This is why I waited until all claimants had made their bids before revealing the truth of the when and how this country was discovered and settled, then destroyed and re-settled again and again as a result of natural disasters, not war and cannibalism as many love to believe.
Two possibilities,
Posted on 16-02-2015 14:17 | By robin bell
wisechief is yet another invention of crazy ( Baker) who simply (in the real sense of the word) uses the name,the way he used jeromy murkin and no doubt others. Or it could be his old mate Doutre. Now he's a real academic, an Astro Geologist no less. Self appointed, self promoting, self possessed, perverse nutter. The aim, confuse, condition then convince. It's all a conspiracy folks, big money in that, for the Treaty Trashing fear mongering one N.Z. foundation.Aided and abetted by the part Celtic remnants of a once proud people.Lost in the South Pacific. Robin Bell.
Wisechief
Posted on 16-02-2015 14:58 | By Wise Chief
Ding dong you err with ur accusation I am in support of One NZ Foundations which is offshoot of Royal British Militia Group still in vogue amongst a die hard dermally biased few here. While I agree with some decisions of Tribunal they are biased in many of their decisions when allocating lands to those who actually do not own them and never will. Besides I think this debate is at an end & neither side can be satisfied to the degree each party want's. Rather let have all readers awake to what confronts us ALL right NOW whether we like it or not. Why? Because the JET STREAM which drives massive ocean of air currents above us at both ends of the world is NOW doing a HULA & it has only just started. This will speed up and with it WILL come extremely tumultuous weather. Danger ahead.
Crazyhorse, you are bitter and not logical
Posted on 16-02-2015 17:12 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse keeps on producing examples of Maori wrongdoing, such as the massacre of Moriori, as though Maori wrongdoing in the past justifies not doing anything about known injustice now. That is illogical. Crazyhorse is like a child who thinks that they are the centre of the universe and is grizzling about a whole lot of things that they do not like and ignoring everything else. There is no logical connection between isolated incidents in the past and crazyhorse's belief that Maori leaders now are making a grab for wealth and power. The Waitangi Tribunal has been operating for 40 years. Crazyhorse does not like their decisions but he has been totally unable to prove that they are corrupt. His complaints are simply childish grizzling at not getting his own way.
Wisechief
Posted on 16-02-2015 17:44 | By crazyhorse
Robin Bell thinks I have made you up, I will let you answer him, I'm sure you can do a much better job than I would, also Bell, Parihaka is another Trougher "lie", it was not a holocaust, just more fairy tales and history blown out of all proportion, also Bell the Maori at Parihaka, were guilty of a bit of holocausting themselves, you keep that quiet, but then there's no troughing to be had there eh.
Definition of HOLOCAUST
Posted on 16-02-2015 18:38 | By crazyhorse
Full Definition of HOLOCAUST 1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire 2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire 3 a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II —usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocide
SO MUCH FOR PARIHAKA
Posted on 16-02-2015 18:53 | By crazyhorse
Which the troughers are trying to elevate into the greatest injustice in our history, we shall now go east to Matawhero, a small settlement of hard working pioneer families, monday the 9th of november,1868, thats after the treaty was signed Robby!Te Kooti and about 100 hauhau savages crossed the waipaoa river rode into Matawhero and slaughtered 70 of it's sleeping inhabitants, with tomahawks bayonet and stone clubs, woman children friendly maori, slaughtered like animals, have a real good look at this campers, never do you hear the troughers mention this and most importantly it was after the treaty was signed,the occupation at Parihaka lasted 14 years they were warned many times to leave but instead they were out harassing settler farmers shop keepers and everyone around the area, after all diplomatic efforts failed 959 volunteers and 630 armed constabulary moved in, not a shot was fired, holocaust, no embarrassment!.
The operative word wise chief is,
Posted on 17-02-2015 07:30 | By robin bell
nutter. What ever else you may or not be,you talk rubbish. Enjoy your retirement. Robin Bell.
Peter myths?
Posted on 17-02-2015 13:13 | By YOGI BEAR
The Moriori are ops I mean were real, and yes that should be paid by Maori for the wrong doings there and there are plenty. It is hypocrisy to seek compo and handout on false pretenses yet fail to account for ones own wrongs to others. Crazy is right to challenge this silly nonsense
Wisechief
Posted on 17-02-2015 15:37 | By Wise Chief
As I have already said this debate is pointless when YOU ALL are like possums in headlights while truck is about to run one over in form of huge weather pattern changes.These unable to be computed or predicted due to unknown complexity of new airflow patterns emerging now JET STREAM OSCILLATION has changed.Looking back into the past and seeking to give it relevance today in light of whats bearing down to hammer mankind into stone ages is NO LAUGHING MATTER.Like both sides in these debates about who has and is being denied rights & dignity it is the YOUTH & CHILDREN and their forward generations who one should be fully focused upon preserving. Obviously few have the intelligence to realise the land they live upon will become near worthless and very difficult to live on when weather patterns as we now see turn real crazy.Wise up people this BAD.
crazyhorse and YOGI BEAR provide opportunities
Posted on 17-02-2015 16:50 | By Peter Dey
The continual misinformation that crazyhorse and YOGI BEAR contribute provides a continual opportunity to repeat the important facts from our history. Readers now know that modern science is certain that Maori were the first settlers in New Zealand, that the official Maori and English versions of the Treaty of Waitangi are genuine, that Treaty settlements have cost taxpayers less than $2 billion over 25 years while the Government spends about $100 billion every year so accusations of Treaty troughing are nonsense, that there is no credible evidence that the Waitangi Tribunal is corrupt, that Pakeha grievers who are resentful of Maori progress, and as Robin Bell has pointed out in his letter that present policies to rectify injustice to Maori are not privilege but the opposite of privilege. In a Pakeha dominated society it is Pakeha who are privileged, the same as the dominant group in every society.
Matawhero, the TRUTH.
Posted on 17-02-2015 22:13 | By robin bell
Te Kooti, whilst fighting for the British was accused of firing blanks.He was arrested,exiled to the Chathams,without trial. He escaped using the schooner the Rifleman, releasing the crew unharmed. Later after being pursued unmercifully by the British. The Poverty Bay Massacre was predictably called a barbaric deed. However another view,more favourable to Te Kooti holds that,the " Matawhro Raid" was an understandable act of war,explicable in terms of British atrocities, Maori custom and Te Kooti's desire for revenge. Source, N.Z. Wars James Belich (sorry James, you will now become a Treaty Trougher) Question is, Do we believe Professor Belich, or Ross Baker, ex motor mechanic and failed "researcher" for the one N.Z.foundation," Treaty Trashing losers" with no qualifications in history between them.? Robin Bell.
Holo- caust,
Posted on 18-02-2015 08:06 | By robin bell
Sadly Baker the English language undoes you yet again. Holo, from the Greek meaning whole. Caust, from the Greek meaning consumed by fire but also corrosive,as in caustic The corrosive effects of the Parihaka are still being felt today.As someone who constantly uses sensational, emotive words and phrases,you should know,they are intended to shock and gain attention, you know Baker words like Apartheid and phrases like treaty troughing. Robin Bell.
PICKING AND CHOOSING
Posted on 18-02-2015 13:44 | By crazyhorse
THE TRUTH, ANOTHER EXAMPLE. Peter Dey said's treaty settlements have been less than 25 million over 25 years, maybe he would like to tell everyone what it costs a year to "fund" the separatist" society that has been created by "treaty troughers, you know, separate education, health, tv, radio stations, sports team, all the unelected boards around the country feeding off the rate or tax payer. Golly Pete had you forgotten about that, that runs at around 1 billion dollars a year, and the Gov't would never tell you the true cost, been enough written about it, probably by the wrong people though, by us rednecks and racists eh?. I see by Robby's comment that the apologist's have their own dictionary now, be a bugger for you Robby if anyone actually googles "holocaust" oops you hadn't thought of that!, wonder what billions of dollars would do for health system?.
DUMB AND DUMBER!
Posted on 18-02-2015 14:57 | By crazyhorse
who would have thought Maori academic Dr. Ranginui Walker and Hone Harawira would described Osama bin Laden as 'a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. Professor Ranginui Walker also acknowledged bin Laden on Te Karere. Dr Walker likened him to the 19th century Maori "prophet" "Te Kooti Rikirangi" because of his fight for his country. It has obviously escaped Dumb and Dumber that Osama bin Laden was a Saudi, living in Pakistan committing acts of terror all around the world but specifically in the US, Afghanistan and Iraq. None of those countries are Saudi Arabian so quite how he is 'fighting” for 'the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” or 'country” is beyond me, I wonder what other maori think about Dr. Walker comparing Te Kooti with bin laden?, yeah I'd liken him to bin laden to!.
Thanks to crazyhorse and YOGI BEAR
Posted on 18-02-2015 15:56 | By Peter Dey
We can be thankful to crazyhorse and YOGI BEAR. They provide half-truths and arguments without credibility that allow us to present the sound reasons why anti-Maori writers are wrong. So we have seen the One New Zealand Foundation, the One Law For All party, the Colourblind New Zealand campaign, and the Twisting the Treaty book all disappear from public view. It indicates that race relations in New Zealand are moving forward gradually but positively and anti-Maori extremists are fighting a losing campaign.
crazyhorse, Maori simply get their fair share
Posted on 18-02-2015 16:52 | By Peter Dey
crazyhorse seems to think that no Government money should be allocated to Maori activities. Maori make up 15% of the population. The Government spends about $100 billion a year. So $1 billion a year spent on Maori activities like TV, schools and health is perfectly acceptable. Crazyhorse seems obsessed with the idea that the Maori community is bad, and that they are ruining New Zealand. Producing isolated examples of wrongdoing by Maori proves nothing. Crazyhorse actually highlights the fact that most of the historical injustice to Maori occurred because Maori were not treated as individuals having individual rights in law as British citizens which they were promised at the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi.
FOR ONCE YOUR RIGHT
Posted on 18-02-2015 17:10 | By crazyhorse
Yes Peter, any one reading these threads will make up their own minds on who is telling the truth and who's not, you seem to think who ever writes on these threads is here to "spar with you and Bell, 'wrong" every thread you start or join just gets more of what's really happening in NZ out there, the holocaust or the Ten new coastal rights for tribes, how many people didn't know about this truth and fact's, don't thank me, I thank you, I'm sure we will catch up soon when you next print your racist propaganda!.
crazyhorse, Pakeha in NZ are privileged
Posted on 18-02-2015 18:11 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse has still not produced a credible answer to the original point in Robin Bell's letter. Maori in New Zealand have been an ethnic minority for most of our history. They have been disadvantaged for all that time, because Governments always run affairs to suit the Pakeha majority. The outstanding example is the fact that restitution by way of Treaty settlements for land stolen by the Government took 150 years to be actioned. And then only 10% compensation has been paid because Pakeha taxpayers would vote out any government that gave full and fair compensation. Crazyhorse moaning about Maori privilege because action is being taken to deal with the results of injustice to Maori is blinded by his own obsession. He can see Maori getting something that he cannot have and wants some too. In a bicultural society the majority culture is always privileged. Crazyhorse should be grateful for i
EVERY
Posted on 19-02-2015 09:24 | By crazyhorse
Everyone here is an immigrant and none should have the right to a separatist system or to scream "racism every time K1WI's say "NO", The Treaty of Waitangi and the Labour Government that imposed it's recognition are largely to blame for the social, economic and the fundamental malaise prevalent in modern New Zealand society. Something that has been continued by both the Labour and National party policies. There are small groups of people with significant power from both European and Maori sources that stand to benefit and are manipulating finance, land ownership and access, public attitudes and society to their own ends. Yes there are still people with a dynastic view of power, property and genealogy. It is what will happen now and in the next generations that are important today, THE OTHER 85% OF K1W1'S are not cash cows to the treatyist's.
Lethargic KIWI!!,
Posted on 19-02-2015 09:30 | By crazyhorse
There have been over 200 contemporary claims filed with the Waitangi Tribunal. Ngapuhi claimants even talking about lodging a claim for the commercial use of wind .Customary rights to water is another example, but there are many more. Some have failed; others have succeeded, like the water claim. all of these claims concern the actions of successive governments since 1992 showing that the treaty troughers will always have a fresh trough to feed from, treaty claims so far will never match what is to come, contemporary claims, wind, water, airwaves , even talking about so called social injustices, smoking, over weight, can't get a job, it's your fella's fault. Each successive Gov't has ensured the door is opened just a few inches more, when it is ripped open completely we will see a feeding frenzy that will awake even the most lethargic KIWI!!, but, will it be to 'LATE"?.
crazyhorse, Pakeha are better off than Maori
Posted on 19-02-2015 13:35 | By Peter Dey
crazyhorse knows that the 85% Pakeha population is better off than the 15% Maori population. One reason for this is that Maori were defrauded by Government of their land resources over a period of 150 years. The land now in private possession that was taken from Maori is off limits in Treaty settlements. This is because the Government believes it would be voted out if it gave back too much to Maori. Treaty settlements are 10% of the value taken. So Maori are still not receiving justice. Crazyhorse is moaning on about special treatment for Maori that are attempts to rectify injustice, and ignoring that as a Pakeha he has never been subjected to racial injustice himself. Crazyhorse has lost leave of his senses if he thinks that Maori getting action to rectify injustice becomes an injustice to him.
crazyhorse, Maori coastal rights are part-ownership
Posted on 19-02-2015 13:55 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is over-reacting over coastal rights for Maori. When the Marine and Coastal Areas Act was passed anti-Maori writers claimed that the Government was handing over thousands of kilometres of coastline to Maori and that Pakeha would be charged for access or denied access to the coast. Nothing of the sort has occurred. The coastal areas that Maori can claim are areas that they have had traditional use of since early times. They have not been given ownership. They have been given certain rights only. There are already areas of coast in private ownership where the owners have greater rights than that given to Maori. Clearly crazyhorse believes that the Maori race and culture should be attacked continually in an effort to assimilate them so that we become a mono-cultural Pakeha country. However crazyhorse is fighting a losing battle. Maori race and culture are simply not going away.
Wisechief
Posted on 19-02-2015 18:10 | By Wise Chief
Porangi Hoiho it was pale crew who brought huge fishing boats from overseas who came into open waters around NZ to strip mine it of fish & crayfish etc. As pale crew realised more & more delicacies which are food staples of Maori settlers to gain control of Maori food resources lobbied government to make laws to restrict Maori from gathering them. The pale crew were so voracious in their rape and pillage they imposed quota.This is why I filed claims with gov using article 2 of TOW. My original claim has conveniently disappeared off MAF books, which in turn allowed formation of the Maori fishing Commission to override us and to dole out marine resources to their own mates while myself & others have been denied even minutest of compensation.No restraint for pale crew huh who change laws for continued rape and pillaging of oceans. Ask Fletcher Fishing?
Maori coastal rights ?
Posted on 19-02-2015 21:48 | By Silent Lambs
There is no such things as Maori rights, ALL costal areas are there for the equal use of all New Zealanders. Nothing else need be said.
Wisechief
Posted on 20-02-2015 08:18 | By Wise Chief
Porangi Hoiho in a blatant theft of Maori Gold & Silver precious metals resources Settler Government here in 1933 transfered them to US Gov Inc after it was bankrupted via FED associated bankers, Bank England etc 1933. This also occurred recently when precious metals extraction rights to Seabed were taken from Maori & limited rights to territorial seas around were NZ heavily restricted with new powers given to POLICE STATE here along with Regional Councils. This stuff and theft of Seabed Foreshore an outcomes of Law of the Sea meeting in NY in 1973. Note UNCLOS 9 the legislation which empowered the long planned theft was craft by Texan geologist who work for shell and who wife was....wait for it...a constitutional lawyer. Have you ever heard of ''sleepers''. They spys sent to infiltrate governments and slowly change policy in their country and corporates favour. Wakey wakey to reality.
part ownership co-governance
Posted on 20-02-2015 09:45 | By crazyhorse
Peter, do you think that people don't read whats going on around the country with all this sea bed sea shore thingy, people on the coast are banding together, if we are talking about "part" ownership, did the other "part" owners have a say on Ninety mile beach, about charging tourism operators or changes being talked about,will the other "part' owner, as in "us", get half the money that is charged for tourism or anything else by the other"part"maori" part"owners, because we are "part" owners are we not?, big fight going on with the hole in the rock up north, bloody rocks all over the place but that one with the hole in it, bruz it's special, yeah right you can get money from it, but as "part" owners will we see any of that cash. Anyone like to give us an answer?
John, some coastal areas are in private ownership
Posted on 20-02-2015 13:53 | By Peter Dey
As long as some coastal areas are in private ownership, then it is fair for Maori to have areas that they once owned returned to them. The Treaty of Waitangi promised Maori continued ownership of their land, fisheries, and possessions. The Maori race still exists. Our Governments believe in justice and the rule of law. It is no longer possible for Pakeha governments to say they believe in justice and the rule of law and act as though the Treaty of Waitangi can be ignored. It was done for 150 years but that time is now over.
crazyhorse, community not individual rights
Posted on 20-02-2015 14:04 | By Peter Dey
crazyhorse confuses individual and community rights when he talks about part-Maori. Any part-ownership rights that Maori may be granted to coastal areas are granted to Maori communities not individual Maori. If commercial enterprises are getting income from natural resources once owned by Maori, there is nothing unfair about Maori getting a commission. Maori are simply working their way back into the economic system that we have. Complaining about Maori progress is just prejudice. If you want something really worth complaining about complain about the fact that people who have large inherited wealth can live off that wealth without having to work and contribute to society like everybody else.
Here's your answer crazyhorse.
Posted on 21-02-2015 10:39 | By robin bell
The so-called Hole in the Rock is a classic example of commercial exploitation by Pakeha tour opperators over Maori. The Island Motu Kokako is Maori freehold land,no "joint" ownership its theirs,end of story. Imagine the protests if you owned the land. Helicopter visits to the same island are not in dispute,because the tour operators pay a levy, normal business practice. The Helicopter companies recognise the mana whenua and mana moana rights of the owners,the boat owners don't,hence the dispute. You really should educate yourself better crazy-Baker,maybe its too late. Robin Bell.
crazyhorse, community not individual rights
Posted on 21-02-2015 17:37 | By crazyhorse
Quote Dey{If you want something really worth complaining about complain about the fact that people who have large inherited wealth can live off that wealth without having to work and contribute to society like everybody else.} If someone is "given" money whether that be from someone or winning lotto they will be contributing to society, they will pay tax on the interest just as they would pay tax as a worker, a lot more tax than IWI pay, remember iw ipay"no" tax, even on profits of their commercial investments." Also the people you talk about inheriting got it fair and square troughing takes about a billion dollars a year off the average NZ tax payer big difference don't you think, no you don't do you, think what that would do for the health system, used for "everyone"
crazyhorse, 1% share for Maori is fair
Posted on 22-02-2015 16:20 | By Peter Dey
crazyhorse complains about Maori getting $1 billion a year in Government spending. That is 1% of Government spending. Maori make up 15% of the population. Crazyhorse is making a fuss about nothing. Crazyhorse is confused about people living off the income from assets and not having to work. Tax has got nothing to do with it. They are not working for society like every normal worker. If crazyhorse thinks that fairness is important then start making a fuss about Pakeha people who take from society and do not contribute.
WHAT EVER APOLOGIST
Posted on 23-02-2015 11:39 | By crazyhorse
Let the people decide!.
Wisechief
Posted on 23-02-2015 15:51 | By Wise Chief
I agree with Peter Dey that Porangi Hoiho should focus on very large percentage of pale crew who feed upon state coffers while never working in any real sense or paying proper taxes for whole of their lifetimes & in many cases for several generations. Maori by contrast have been taxed in every way & manner since colonist landed. If this were not FACT Maori would not be reduced to the depraved state many live in today. One example is the pension and super which a very large number of pale crew receive weekly while fewer than 4% of Maori by comparison live to 65 to receive such. Again Maori have so little resources at 5% of land & 95% pale crew yet per head pay far more tax for it than pale crew? I mean look at all the institutional barriers erected to slow Maori Economic development etc.
Oh Wise chief?
Posted on 01-03-2015 10:13 | By YOGI BEAR
Maori have been untaxed or under taxed, not over taxed at anytime. Good attempt to muddy the waters like Robin and Peter but in reality the numbers speak for themselves.
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