Living as one under the sun

If our forefathers made an agreement 178 years ago and over the next 50 years haven’t honoured it that is their sin, not ours.

New Zealand has come a long way, with people of many colours, races, and creeds. Now is not the time to right what some see as a wrong by creating Maori wards for our future.

Don’t belittle the successes of many Maori who have achieved by patronising actions like Maori wards. These people are valued because of success and lead the way.

My wife, a New Zealander of European descent, can’t stand in Maori wards, nor can she vote in them. If I stood for a Maori ward she couldn’t vote for me.

We are both Kiwis with roots in New Zealand history, but someone wants to divide us.

I was brought up with a song by the Maori show band The Kini Quartet called ‘Under the Sun’. A line says “In the land of the free like our own country, where our babies are taught as one, where they learn to be men lift up their faces and then, walk hand in hand, into the sun.”

A Sole, Athenree.


43 Comments

crazy - get someone to help you

Posted on 18-05-2018 20:37 | By waxing

crazy - get someone to read the treaty to you - the preamble and the articles. Quite simple and very clear about Maori and their rights and property. You may disagree with it (and clearly you do) but only someone deliberately seeking to pervert the truth for their own ideological purposes can deny what is there. Then get someone to research what was actually debated and said at the time of signing the treaty. It’s quite clearly recorded and easily available. Nothing about "now we are one people" but plenty about sovereignty claimed (and recognised by Britain) by Northern Maori chiefs in the 1835 Declaration of Independence, and referred to in terms of sovereignty when the treaty was signed. You don’t like it. But pointless denying it.

Maori own natural resources

Posted on 17-05-2018 16:44 | By crazyhorse

What a load of rubbish, the apologists and the treaty troughers can tell that lie, and, their other favourite maori never ceded sovereignty till the cows come home but, it is still a lie.The treaty of waitangi must be one of the most abused documents on earth, what Pete’s pushing is the TOW can mean anything and can be changed to suit the situation, worked a treat so far.

Captain Sensible, wrong again, you are the grievance campaign

Posted on 17-05-2018 16:27 | By Peter Dey

There is no grievance industry. Treaty settlements have to be justified and passed through parliament. Because of the original fiscal cap on Treaty claims compensation of less than 10 per cent has been paid out for justified claims. In Tauranga $50 million compensation was paid for $500 million worth of land wrongfully confiscated. Captain Sensible seems to be in grievance mode because he seems to want everything Maori to be devalued.

Crazyhorse, Maori own natural resources

Posted on 17-05-2018 14:59 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, you talk as though ownership of natural resources in NZ is up for debate. The Treaty granted Maori tribes ownership of their own natural resources, not all natural resources. The fact that governments bulldozed over these rights for 100 years is now being addressed. Ownership by Maori of their tribal natural resources was never legally taken away. It is the law. No NZ government now wants to be hauled before the UN for being racist by dishonouring the Treaty. It is where our nation began.

A.Sole, Crazyhorse, Captain Sensible, he iwi rua tatou

Posted on 17-05-2018 14:14 | By Peter Dey

Before 1975 the Treaty of Waitangi was not honoured by NZ governments. We were governed as a nation of one culture with Maori treated as an inferior group holding on to the past. Since 1975 we have been governed as a nation of two peoples, honouring the Treaty as a partnership. People like A.Sole, Crazyhorse, and Captain Sensible should understand why as a nation we changed, and why their desire to go back to the past is a fantasy.

TREATY INDUSTRY

Posted on 17-05-2018 14:06 | By crazyhorse

We have a "grievance industry in NZ, not a grievance process, once you have your head around that the rest is easy to understand, treaty troughers can claim anything they like and we will pay for that claim the whole process, they might not get what they originally claimed but you can guarantee they will get something and remember campers, this costs them nothing, look at all the ridiculous claims over the last couple of years and now with contemporary claims the flavour of the day the treaty industry in actually winding up not winding down, think about it, if you were getting millions of dollars for nothing would you stop?, yeah rite, these people have had nothing taken from them and we have taken nothing from them.we ain’t talking about a long-lost tribe from the Amazon, maori are becoming maori for a reason, it pays well!.

overit, Maori have rights over natural resources

Posted on 17-05-2018 10:28 | By Peter Dey

The Treaty granted Maori rights over natural resources. The government is now having respectful discussions with Maori over these rights and we now have co-governance and consultation laws. There should be no drama over this. All citizens of New Zealand should know by now that we live in a nation with a unique constitution based on the Treaty of Waitangi. People who want to reject this and turn back the clock are in fantasyland.

Peter

Posted on 16-05-2018 18:26 | By overit

"our natural resources"??? You do mean all citizens of NZ right????

A.Sole and Crazyhorse wrong about responsibility

Posted on 16-05-2018 13:36 | By Peter Dey

To say that mistakes made one hundred years ago are not our responsibility is ignorance. The Treaty was signed between the Pakeha government and Maori tribes. The individuals involved are irrelevant. The government is still here and the Maori tribes are still here so the Treaty still applies, and the injustices committed by government are still a government responsibility.

Crazyhorse, you are paddling upstream without a paddle

Posted on 16-05-2018 13:00 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse you are trying to turn back history. NZ had massive racial protests in the 1960’s 1970’s and 1980’s. It may be that you were not here. The NZ government and politicians were hugely embarrassed because the international community accused us of being racist and we had no defence. We operated as a monocultural society and ignored a hundred years of injustice to Maori. Politicians now know about that and do not want to go down in history as modern racists. You seem to want to go back but politicians do not and they make the law.

Crazyhorse, Fact. Maori are not asking for representation based on Maori ancestry

Posted on 16-05-2018 11:31 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, Maori communities are asking for fair representation on local councils. Polls that show that most New Zealanders do not want councillors elected on the basis of race have used a misleading question. Nobody is asking for Maori individuals to have special preference, only for communities to be fairly represented. The Treaty of Waitangi Act and court judgements say they should be.

Crazyhorse, water is a taonga. Maori were granted continued possession.

Posted on 16-05-2018 11:22 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, the Treaty granted Maori the continued possession of their taonga and their water was one. They even had personal gods with mana over their waterways . Do not quote Apirana Ngata about taonga. Look instead in the Williams dictionary of the Maori language compiled at the time. Water was a taonga.

Maori wards are not patronising. Refusing Maori wards is patronising

Posted on 16-05-2018 11:16 | By Peter Dey

A.Sole has got it wrong when he describes Maori wards as patronising. Maori communities have fairly asked for Maori wards and provided good reason for the request. It is patronising for A.Sole and Crazyhorse to say that Maori do not know what is good for them. Maori wards make no difference to any body else, so only the preference of Maori communities is relevant.

Crazyhorse, Fact. Benefits for Maori are part compensation

Posted on 16-05-2018 11:11 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, you whinge about the benefits that Maori receive. You need to take into account the fact that when Treaty settlements were accepted as justified by parliament, the government set a cap of $1 billion for compensation. It has turned out to be less than 10 per cent of the value of land compensated. Only in New Zealand do we have a government agreeing to pay compensation for offences it has committed and then acting as the judge in its own case and paying only 10 per cent compensation. All of the benefits that you whinge about are the government trying to make up to Maori for the unfairness that is still being committed.

Crazyhorse, He iwi Tatou was a fabrication

Posted on 16-05-2018 11:03 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, you have no record from the signing of the Treaty that Governor Hobson ever said the words He Iwi Tahi Tatou. These words were made up by William Colenso in 1890, 50 years after the Treaty. They were used by him and are being used now as a scam to make people believe wrongly that Maori signed up to being one culture. We have always been two people. He iwi rua tatou. All over the world people hold on to their own culture while they work peacefully with others. This is the future of NZ. Crazyhorse you are lost in the past.

Crazyhorse, fact Maori are under-represented on local councils

Posted on 16-05-2018 10:57 | By Peter Dey

The Treaty recognises the rights of Maori tribes and their communities to continue their existence. Only 5 per cent of local councillors are Maori over all NZ. This is under-representation of Maori communities. Individuals with Maori ancestry who do not represent Maori communities are presented as a smokescreen by people who do not believe in fair representation for Maori communities.

The song Under the Sun was against racism

Posted on 16-05-2018 10:49 | By Peter Dey

A.Sole seems to think that the song All Equal Under the Sun was a message for us all to become one culture, and that Maori wanting their own culture divides us. That is a complete misunderstanding. The song from America was against racism. In NZ at the time this was excluding Maori players from All Black teams because of their race. Unbelievable now. We have come a long way. A.Sole and Crazyhorse are living in the past. Our children are the future. They have no problem with Maori culture being respected separately, and not dividing us.

Crazyhorse can't help himself,

Posted on 16-05-2018 08:43 | By R. Bell

the spin rolls from his tongue like wasted chaff. The Auckland Maori Advisory Board are a statutory requirement. They have no power to legislate they simply advise on matters affecting Maori interests, guaranteed by the treaty AND government legislation. Like any other body they are entitled to ask the court to clarify decisions. All such boards cost the taxpayer. They are part of the administration cost of running any city or nation. Taxpayers don’t "own "the money it is a cost for belonging. Crazyhorse has a serious selection problem, singling out only Maori transgressions, which of course leads to the inevitable conclusion, Racism. Robin Bell.

A couple of apologists not

Posted on 16-05-2018 07:24 | By crazyhorse

Pete say’s, " People show that Crazyhorse is wrong and he simply fails to provide credible support for his claims.In this thread, we have been discussing why it is undemocratic to have maori wards, seats on local gov’t, Pete, waxo and Wobbin have said I speak with no facts.Fact 1 polls show the majority of K1W1 do not want places given on local Gov’t simply because they have maori blood.2 Local Gov’t is not there to give away ratepayers resources , yes they belong to ratepayers, not councillors or mayors.3 We have proven with facts what happens when unelected maori get "given" this privilege" as in "Auckland" they instantly abuse that privilege for their own benefit, not the benefit of their "people" for themselves, all this is fact!.Fact Every week another case of "fraud" by a treaty trougher on their own people!.

New Zealand's Biggest Scam Ever!

Posted on 15-05-2018 19:14 | By crazyhorse

The 1975 Treaty of Waitangi Act that created the Waitangi Tribunal was the biggest "Scam" ever forced by Government on the People of New Zealand. It allowed one small group of New Zealand citizens that could claim a minute trace of Maori ancestry advantage and privilege under the law not available to any other New Zealand citizen. This is not the agreement our ancestors, both Maori and non-Maori made with a handshake and the words, "He iwi tahi tatou - We are now one people", followed by 3 hearty cheers by the whole gathering at Waitangi on the 6 February 1840.

Murray Guy, I don't remember any conclusive criticism from you

Posted on 15-05-2018 16:20 | By Peter Dey

Murray, I believe any comments I have made have been well justified. I don’t remember any occasions that you have made conclusive criticisms of me. You have disagreed with me but without a conclusive argument. People show that Crazyhorse is wrong and he simply fails to provide credible support for his claims.

No hurry Murray, slow down,

Posted on 15-05-2018 16:11 | By R. Bell

and things will get clearer. The BIG problem with your desperate attempt to discredit, is that as usual you have no answer. That you have no problem with crazy spin could be a contributing factor to your failed bid for council, again.Enter the debate Murray its not difficult only rule -- no spin allowed. Are you up for it Murray? Robin Bell.

Dey

Posted on 15-05-2018 16:05 | By NZer

You need to take your own advice. You are by far the worst at repeating rubbish no one but yourself agrees with

@ murray guy

Posted on 15-05-2018 15:59 | By waxing

Not sure how many comments by crazyhorse you have read Murray or whether it’s just that his views match yours. But for starters it would make a huge difference if crazyhorse uses verifiable facts rather than constantly asserting untruths. Personally I don’t find anything amusing about him doing so. If he is just playing with a subject as serious as race relations in New Zealand and thinks it is humorous to do so, then there is something seriously wrong. Peter Dey, Robin Bell and myself have used verifiable facts and sometimes have a sensible discussion with people as a result (as I did with you recently). There would be a lot gained if older generations studied NZ history properly rather than sitting at their keyboards.

TROUGHERS FIGHT AMONG THEMSELVES

Posted on 15-05-2018 14:43 | By crazyhorse

Council Maori advisory wrangle costs Auckland ratepayers $110k The wrangle over how representatives to Auckland’s Independent Maori Statutory Board (IMSB) are appointed went to the High Court and then the Court of Appeal, racking up a legal bill of $93,000 plus costs. The nine-member board is appointed by a selection panel chosen by iwi groups. Last year broadcaster Willie Jackson took the IMSB selection panel to court after he failed to gain one of the board’s two urban Maori seats thus refusing him a ramp to the trough.Big Willie Jackson said the panel should "do the right thing" and appoint him to the board.

 There are NO Maori seats in Auckland.

Posted on 15-05-2018 14:20 | By crazyhorse

Sorry, Bell you’re right there are no "unelected" maori on Auckland council, maori have their own unelected Auckland council called the Independent Mori Statutory Board, costs ratepayers about $3.4 million a year to run, oh and all the other costs.Auckland Ratepayers Alliance is complaining about the Independent Maori Statutory Boards $273,431 legal bill for its failed challenge of the Auckland Unitary Plan.Spokesperson Jo Holmes, says the boards role is to be a consultation body ensure the view of Maori in the Auckland region is taken into account when Auckland Council makes its decisions, "not a co-governing body".This appeal was an abuse of process which cost the Council and therefore ratepayers more than half a million dollars.The IMSB needs to be reined in. It needs to understand that it is a consultation body to assist the Council, not a co-governing body that trumps ratepayers right to democrac

@ Murray Guy

Posted on 15-05-2018 14:11 | By Captain Sensible

Crazyhorse is denied hundreds of race based privileges due to his blood lines. That makes him angry...as everyone should be. Being denied a grant, scholarship, loan, fish, hospital bed, university place, council options, RMA issues, place on a sports team or whatever because of where his ancestors came from is despicable, and he has every right to complain about it. Maori and the likes of Dey, on the other hand, enjoy all these privileges and fight to keep them. Good on crazyhorse. For evil to triumph, it just takes a few good men to say nothing.

Greed

Posted on 15-05-2018 10:21 | By Captain Sensible

Maori have had it too good for too long and it seems nothing can satisfy their greedy sense of entitlement. Bleat and whinge all day long while immigrants who struggle with english, land a job and within a few years buy a house and educate their kids. Non-maori are all treated as second class kiwis in this country, and the maoris will fight tooth and nail to keep their elite status. Shame on them.

Bell and Crazyhorse 'one and the same', almost!

Posted on 15-05-2018 10:02 | By Murray.Guy

"Crazyhorse, your ranting is irrational", contributes Peter Dey, "Crazyhorse, people show that your arguments are wrong and you take no notice. You are simply repeating the same irrational nonsense over and over. There is no point in anyone reading your comments." CLEARLY Peter Dey and Crazyhorse are one and the same! Peter Dey has let the cat out of the bag. I would encourage Peter Dey to adopt greater emphasis on the Crazyhorse persona as it is often more humorous, less offensive.

There are NO Maori seats in Auckland.

Posted on 15-05-2018 08:30 | By R. Bell

elected or un-elected. Crazyhorse creates spin and false news wherever he treads. Robin Bell.

AUCKLAND'S

Posted on 15-05-2018 07:18 | By crazyhorse

Everyone in NZ has seen what happened when unelected maori were ’given" seats on Auckland council they immediately treated as their own ATM machine, lucky for them they had a group of hard-working people in the Democracy Action Group to stop the rorts.

Absolute nonsense crazyhorse

Posted on 14-05-2018 19:22 | By waxing

People in geographic wards vote for councillors in their ward. They cannot vote for councillors in other geographic wards. A Maori ward is exactly the same as a geographic ward. You know that but you continue your scaremongering to put people off a Maori ward. You also know that a Maori councillor will still act in the best wider interests while representing a Maori perspective during decisionmaking. The council has admitted they don’t have that perspective by voting for a Maori ward. Cr Lally doesn’t have any Maori perspective as he admits to relying on council staff. Then you try and introduce all sorts of wrong allegations making wild (and incorrect) claims about Maori wanting ownership of water, regional development agencies etc etc. You want to undermine the effectiveness of partnership. You are the one promoting "them and us" because it suits your anti-Maori ideology.

Councillors and Mayors

Posted on 14-05-2018 15:06 | By crazyhorse

Are voted in by the majority, the majority of people do not want unelected maori sitting on council, the polls tell us that, it is not up to councillors or mayors to push their own agenda or their "pet" iwi’s, Andrew Judd found this out the hard way and Steve Chadwick would have been voted out in Rotorua if not for someone splitting the vote, she admits that herself, local gov’t is there to make sure the rubbish is picked up and to look after local infrastructure, not make desisions that will effect us and our children. (Edited)

Crazyhorse, your ranting is irrational

Posted on 14-05-2018 12:01 | By Peter Dey

Crazyhorse, people show that your arguments are wrong and you take no notice. You are simply repeating the same irrational nonsense over and over. There is no point in anyone reading your comments.

Dogmatic, crazyhorse.

Posted on 13-05-2018 16:36 | By R. Bell

For the umpteenth time Maori are NOT seeking ownership of water. That is simple minded spin and fear-mongering by nzcpr particularly Butler. The " way it is at the moment" is that Maori are at last part of the due process, not perfect but progressing. No longer will they be ripped off and marginalised. It is you that will adjust or not, your choice. Robin Bell.

NATURAL RESOURCES

Posted on 13-05-2018 15:14 | By crazyhorse

Natural Resources are the basis of life on earth like sunlight and air we cannot live without them, why do maori need to own water, no one owns water, the infrastructure used to distribute it, but not the water, whats wrong with the way it is at the moment? the Gov’t has rules in place that means everyone can get a share, why should someone with a small percentage of maori blood be given a natural resource like water, if treaty troughers put as much planning and thought into "legitimate" business instead of continually feeding off K1W1’s they would be world beaters, stop putting your hands out, we owe you nothing, get a job and a life.

Thank you crazy, you confirm

Posted on 13-05-2018 12:56 | By R. Bell

the ridiculous nature of your previous comments. Maori are not seeking the 50% control or 100% control over water, they are negotiating a fair share in the resource. In areas like the east coast N.I they are the majority, but the resource will be shared on the basis of current use and future need. Sounds fair to me. Don’t dare lecture me on " us and them " it is the basis of everything you stand for and write. Robin Bell.

Pakeha controlled?

Posted on 12-05-2018 12:01 | By crazyhorse

Companies and business around NZ are controlled run by all types of people including maori, some people have a real chip on their shoulders about others who take responsibility for themselves and strive to get ahead in life, as far as farming entities, Forestry ventures, tourist ventures and any other business or venture making money from our natural resources" maori are right up there with everyone else, heaps of maori owned farms or orchards, Ngati Tuwhaetoa own the hole in one golf business on lake Taupo along with the lake, Ngai Tahu own the Shot over group that includes Fairy Springs and Shot over jet in Queenstown, all these using "our" natural rescources, maori are also able to set up there own water bottling plant if they choose, why the them and us Bell? seems like most folk just want to fit in.

I know you never answer questions crazy,

Posted on 12-05-2018 08:53 | By R. Bell

but answer this one. How many Pakeha controlled companies,Farming entities,Forestry ventures, tourist ventures "control and make money from our natural resources"? simple question, but if you have trouble ask your mentors at nzcpr they will spin it for you. Robin Bell.

talk facts

Posted on 11-05-2018 18:25 | By waxing

What a wonderful situation it would be if crazyhorse got over himself and checked things out properly so he talked facts rather than ideological fiction. The problem with his approach is that he hijacks every letter to push his unrelated biased point of view such that there is never any room for commonsense discussion.

Why?

Posted on 11-05-2018 13:56 | By waxing

Why are Maori wards patronising when they simply provide representation in local decisionmaking that Maori currently don’t have? Why do Maori wards belittle the successes of some Maori? Why is partnership division when it still enables you and your wife to "walk hand in hand into the sun"?

YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET!

Posted on 11-05-2018 10:26 | By crazyhorse

Greed is growing especially in Southland, Ngai Tahu wants a bigger piece of the pie in the setup of a new regional development agency in Southland, under the current proposal, 75 percent of the agency would be owned by the four councils (Invercargill, Gore, Southland and Environment Southland), with the remaining 25 percent made up of community shareholders, Ngai Tahu want’s a 50% share with councils, iwi say it’s a more fitting status as a Treaty Partner, Ngai Tahu also requested representation on the new CCO board, iwi’s "pet mayor" Gary Tong said, and I quote him, "I have got no issue with that whatsoever ... I totally agree with [this submission]", around about 1100 maori live here, not all Ngai Tahu , that’s about 9% of Southland ratepayers, why 50% power-sharing? there greed is insatiable it will never stop!.

TRAITOROUS NZLG IS IWI MOLE

Posted on 11-05-2018 09:52 | By crazyhorse

Water is being targeted by the Maori elite as the next resource to control. The influential Iwi Leaders Group is pushing ahead with their demand for a proprietary right to freshwater, LGNZ is being used as a "system" to push this demand to control and make money from our natural resources, this is not what local government are for, these people are not fit to hold office and you have to wonder why they are doing it and what they get from it, Prior to the arrival of Europeans in New Zealand, Maori never owned water. And even after Europeans arrived, Maori never owned water. So there is no cultural basis or historical precedent for the claim. Neither is it a Treaty right.

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