Your July 26 editorial asks why Treaty settlements should be paid for by the present Government and taxpayers - and not by the British Government which signed the Treaty of Waitangi.
The simple answer is that the New Zealand Government, citizens, and taxpayers have been receiving a financial benefit of millions of dollars every year from confiscated land, and will continue to do so even after Treaty settlements have been completed.When more than $100 million worth of local land was confiscated in 1865 the Government and New Zealand citizens received an unjustified $100 million windfall. That windfall has never been repaid, so it has been worth more than $2 million a year to the Government and New Zealand citizens from 1865 until last year. The Government last year returned $50 million in compensation, so taxpayers are still collecting more than $1 million a year from confiscated Tauranga land. Current taxpayers should be quite happy paying Treaty settlement compensation because they have been receiving a financial benefit every year from confiscated land and will continue to do so.
Peter Dey, Welcome Bay.
137 comments
Peter Goneburger
Posted on 02-08-2013 10:27 | By YOGI BEAR
Here we go again, Peter is at it just like yesterday, not change, no allowance for new information from the last few centuries .... denial about anything prior i.e. that there was a multiplicity of peoples in NZ prior to Maori. They just ate the evidence that is all.
YOGI BEAR STILL HAS NO CREDIBILITY
Posted on 02-08-2013 16:29 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR still has no credibility because he continues to say that there were people in New Zealand before Maori arrived. He is totally contradicted by the radiocarbon evidence of Janet Wilmshurst. He says that she writes fiction when in fact she is a professional scientist. Her work is published by the US National academy of Sciences. YOGI BEAR says they write fiction when in fact they are the foremost scientific body in the US, official advisers to the US Government. YOGI BEAR can enjoy himself writing nonsense because nobody knows who he really is.
MILLIONS RIPPED OFF YEARLY!
Posted on 02-08-2013 18:20 | By crazyhorse
It costs the NZ tax payer around 1.4 billion dollars a year for the gov't to indulge (part) maori, on top of this no iwi business pays income tax. This 1.4 billion does not take in to account welfare or treaty claims ,just the the indulgence of the gov't, (part) maori sports teams, health, education, kohango Reo, whanau ora(special) seats on boards ,tv,and who knows how much we pay for treaty troughing lawyers to set up anything else that is going at the time, air, water,sunlight, the new radio spectrum, we know that all this was carefully noted on the treaty of Waitangi so there is going to be a claim, who pays, you do!!, couple a million bucks a year,i reckon you lot owe us some money Dey, no cheques either, cash or direct depot, that's a good chap.
New Zealand history
Posted on 02-08-2013 20:08 | By [email protected]
is some information for Peter. By 15th February 1840 virtually two thirds of New Zealand had either been sold or was under signed and witnessed contracts by the chiefs. Most of these contracts are held in New Zealand or NSW Courts. In 1838/39/40 Otago and Ngai tahu chiefs had gone to Sydney hunting for land buyers after the North island tribes had invaded them and taken most of their tribes North into slavery. In spite of Governor Gipps asking the chiefs to sign a pro-Treaty agreement in Sydney on the 14th february 1840, otago and Southland's Ngai tahu had sold two thirds of the South Island in Australia by the 15th February. The North Island sold a third to a number of other buyers.
Rich Peter
Posted on 02-08-2013 21:59 | By kb
I guess with all these billions of dollars changing hands you would be quite a wealthy man ,like the rest of the lower income maori, Right!! gotta work your way to the top, or your just another slave.
1.4 BILLION DOLLARS IS 1.4% OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING
Posted on 02-08-2013 23:01 | By Peter Dey
1.4 billion dollars sounds like a huge amount. Health, education, whanau ora, and TV spending is just the Maori share of Government spending. It is not extra spending that Pakeha do not get. Government spending is $100 billion a year. So $1.4 billion is 1.4% 0f Government spending. Maori make up 15% of the population so complaining about 1.4% spending on Maori is more nonsense.
LAND SALES BEFORE 1840 ARE IRRELEVANT
Posted on 02-08-2013 23:05 | By Peter Dey
Ian Brougham quotes information of land sales before 1840. This is irrelevant to the rights and wrongs of land confiscation in 1865, and Treaty settlement compensation now being paid.
kb HAS NO EVIDENCE OF FRAUD BY MAORI LEADERS
Posted on 02-08-2013 23:09 | By Peter Dey
kb suggests that Maori leaders keep settlement payouts to themselves and it never gets to ordinary Maori. Neither kb nor anybody else has produced any solid evidence to back up this claim. It is simply anti-Maori mudslinging.
Not fraud?
Posted on 03-08-2013 08:58 | By kb
I'm not saying its fraud ,It just doesn't seem to filter down to the maori that actually need it. What have you or any other maori you know actually received ,cash into your bank account?? .The maori at the top simply invest it and lose it in bad investments. You have got to ask yourself is this right?
TREATY SETTLEMENTS ARE ASSETS NOT ANNUAL INCOME
Posted on 03-08-2013 09:56 | By Peter Dey
kb, Treaty settlements are not annual income. They are one off assets that have to be built on for the future. This means that they have to be used carefully without taking foolish risks. Those that have been burnt provide a lesson to others. Treaty settlements have to be used for re-investment to provide a strong tribal financial base, to support the ongoing survival of tribal organisation and culture, and for education for the next generation. Only the income from Treaty settlements can be used, not the settlement asset itself. Wise investment shows little evidence to outsiders because the goals are long term.
Trickledown.kb
Posted on 03-08-2013 11:25 | By robin bell
kb.You should perhaps ignore the adverse publicity and trust the Maori people to look after thier own affairs.Whith respect,you clearly know little or nothing about the structure of the settlement process.As Peter explains the benifits will take years or even longer to become obvious to the general population.In the meantime I can prove to you that trickledown is a reality for hundreds of young Maori who are benifitng by higher education. That in itself is an incalcuble benifit to you and N.Zin general.You like the rest of N.Z.have a choice,rectify the wrongs of our past or suffer the consequence of a return to oppression.
Re trickledown
Posted on 04-08-2013 10:49 | By kb
your right robin I don't understand the settlement process,my education was supplied to me by the nz taxpayer. Education is great and everything, for those who get it, may they all have big boats and houses as I'm sure they will, the poor maori I'm talking about helping the ones living below the poverty line for example Bethlehem Marae on the main road ,about 300 meters north of there on maoriland ,a family living in 3 old caravans ,cold ,damp, toilets? can't be healthy, can't you just build them a small house to live in, charge them rent? if you need to see some return on your investment. The trickledown won't help them.Losing millions in bad investment doesn't help them either.
Big Hit KB
Posted on 04-08-2013 20:42 | By crazyhorse
THERE IS NO HONEST ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, not from bing and bong???? anyway.
TREATY SETTLEMENTS ARE NOT EARNING INCOME YET
Posted on 05-08-2013 14:56 | By Peter Dey
kb, local Maori completed a Treaty settlement just 12 months ago. Only the income from that settlement is available to be spent. Before any income becomes available the settlement must be invested very conservatively for the long term. Nobody with any sense would expect Maori to start spending up large as though there will be a new settlement every twelve months. The current Treaty settlements are one off payments. People who say that Treaty claims are made again and again are referring to a very few claims where the original settlement was grossly unfair. Maori will in the long term provide housing for those who need it. Expecting this to be done right now is nonsense.
Poor Maori.
Posted on 05-08-2013 17:45 | By robin bell
kb,The poor Maori you refer to are no different to poor people everywhere.I have no idea what thier personal circumstances are,but why don't you call in one day and ask them.One of the problems N.Z.faces is the lack of communication between the different races.I won't repeat what Peter has said only that once again he is absolutely correct.No doubt you did receive an education but that in itself doesn't guaranty an understanding of anything.The conversation we are having is a classic example of the poor communication in the Pakeha world. Maori have a distinct advantage in that respect Robin Bell.
Big words for a Horse.
Posted on 05-08-2013 20:03 | By robin bell
I thought you would have learned by now Crazy.You'r using words that no Horse can possibly understand ."Honesty"= not given to distorting the truth,Integrity,Fair minded,Just, etc.etc.How can anyone hiding behind a false name possibly claim any of the above?Face up to it old Horse you'r just like all your friends stuck in the mud.No credibility,no evidence,just one conspiracy after another. Robin Bell.
Honesty Bell ???where.
Posted on 06-08-2013 09:13 | By crazyhorse
See the Huntly Kohango Reo looking for a bit of honesty? $800,000 gone missing, Kings niece asked to pay back what she (lent)and head of department titoki Black stood down for not reporting it, i know what honesty is Bell, i know what dishonest is as well!
Conspiring Horses.
Posted on 06-08-2013 20:10 | By robin bell
As usual you ignore the question and try your diversionary tactics. There is no question many N.Zers need to look at honesty-dishonesty.The courts are full of dishonest people,Its part of the human condition.To single out Maori is simply evidence of your ongoing prejudice.For now i'll trump you with Sir Doug Graham.Your move Neddy.
Sir Doug BELL!!!!
Posted on 06-08-2013 21:38 | By crazyhorse
My move is to remind you he was treaty negotiations minister who bought in the relativity clause, 16% for Ngai tahu and 17% for Tainui, that has cost NZ alot more than losses from Lombard finance, Tuku Morgans a mate of yours bing bong read all about him on Tainui blog http://erakablog.wordpress.com/category/te-arataura-2/tuku-morgan-te-arataura/ Doug Graham about sums up the calibre of politicians who have ever dealt with treaty matters, GOOD ONE BELL!!!! Neddy over and out.
Retorting Horse next Prime Minister..
Posted on 07-08-2013 11:20 | By robin bell
We definately need a change thats for sure.Lets see now,Instead of rectifying the wrongs of the past we'll just sweep them under the carpet and pretend they dont exist thats a good start.Cobble together a few like minded nutters and reinvent history.Create a new political party,call it by an emotive phrase like 1 Law 4 all, and suck people into thinking your the way of the future.WoW! how original is that? Check out the history of extreme right politics in the western world they dont last long.People are not as stupid as you think.
corruption
Posted on 07-08-2013 18:08 | By crazyhorse
Dey and you his lap dog are always asking for proof of corruption concerning treaty settlements, just gave you two princess, now you abuse me for the kind information, im going off you M
Rave On Bing Bong!!
Posted on 07-08-2013 18:32 | By crazyhorse
What has your last comment got to do with all the facts i kindly supplied. You and Dey are always asking me to prove corruption in treaty deals or head honchos of the iwi as in reference to Tuku Morgan, the proof is there read on, Dougy Graham is a convicted criminal, he is (corrupt)!!!, he was the treaty negotiator who put in the relativity clause that cost NZ tax payers millions of dollars, what more proof do you want? I hear he is broke so coming back to the trough, he has sharpened his skills at Lombard Finance so will fit in nicely with the other treaty troughers, even an apologist lap dog like you should be excited, maybe not, put some thought into your next rant this is getting boring,i cant believe you bring Doug Graham into it, was that like a free shot for me, THANKS.
Still hiding are we Crazy.
Posted on 08-08-2013 12:17 | By robin bell
Sadly you have a bad case of conspiracy "Phobia".All the blogs you have kindly supplied as proof of your theories are conspiracy blogs.Titford for example was written primarily by his wife backed up by One N.Z. Foundation.No one in thier right mind would take that as proof of anything. Maori activist Karla Akahuta is no more credible.Don't you understand how dissafected people twist the truth.You choose to believe that crap because it fits your prejudice.If Tuku Morgan is guilty of the crimes you accuse him of he will sooner or later have to pay for them.I find it hippocritical of you and your friends who,denigrate Maori activists and yet are quite happy to call on the ones you endorse for you own convenience So you see old horse there is still NO PROOF.
ANOTHER RAVE LAP DOG
Posted on 08-08-2013 19:41 | By crazyhorse
Im not accusing tuku morgan of anything. Tainui people are, he is one of their head honchos,and they want some justice. Just bringing it to your attention as this is not the first time is it,do you want to talk about Dougy some more?????, maybe Tuku has some silky boxers he can give you to keep sticking up for him?
INDIVIDUAL FRAUD IS NOT TREATY CLAIM FRAUD
Posted on 09-08-2013 10:16 | By Peter Dey
The example of apparent theft in the Huntly Kohanga Reo is theft by an individual. Theft by an individual does not make an organisation corrupt. Has anybody been charged in court and convicted of theft, or was the money used for an unauthorised purpose? Theft by an individual is not evidence that the Treaty claim process is fraudulent.
No free hits Crazy,
Posted on 09-08-2013 11:34 | By robin bell
You seem obsessed with my reference to Sir Douglas Graham.He is a man who deserves credit for helping to restore some degree of honour to the N.Z. crown.The relativity you talk about was legally negotiated and agreed to by his fellow M.Ps.Still and all a minute fraction of the land value that was stolen.He certainly whent on to disgrace himself,lets face it that whole industry,from investor to management is riddled with greed.The one thing that I admire him for is that he put his name on the block.Unlike gutless creeps like you.You can have the last word Crazy I'm sick and tired of your purile hate talk,and I'm sure Brians team need a short break.Robin Bell.
DENIAL OF NATURAL JUSTICE!
Posted on 09-08-2013 11:51 | By crazyhorse
I use the Titfords as an example of what goes on in this country, their land was taken from them, the government at the time turned their backs on them and the legal process was abandoned due to the other side not wanting anything to do with it. The point i am trying to make is that the Titfords case never got looked at because it would have caused problems for the gov't at the time, this is known as (denial of natural justice). Just an example Mr Bell, just trying to point out what goes on in a so called democracy!!
HUNTLY KOHANGO REO
Posted on 09-08-2013 15:28 | By crazyhorse
Whats this got to do with a treaty claim?, its a maori organisation, run by maori for maori, $800,000 goes missing and the head honcho Titoki Black does not even go to the police or raise the alarm,lets just see how this plays out Dey, lets sit back and use this as an example, perhaps comment as things pan out, or more likely get washed under a rock, great to hear from you again,
JUSTICE OFTEN NEEDS GOODWILL
Posted on 09-08-2013 17:02 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, in the case of Alan Titford, it does seem that he was unable to resolve his conflict with the Te Roroa people through the normal legal processes. So he was hard done by. But Te Roroa had been there for hundreds of years and they also had been hard done by by the legal processes. The dispute seemed to need more goodwill from Alan Titford. He got fair compensation in the finish.
TREATY CLAIM FRAUD
Posted on 10-08-2013 12:08 | By Plonker
Peter, that is the point, individuals dream up scam claims and then rewrite a bit of history to justify it, that is then put forward as a claim by IWI. You can not separate the two factions here as they are so intertwined, add to that of course then that the IWI is aiding the extraction of a claim that all know to be a half truth. Appreciate you confirming the links between some corrupt individuals whose efforts are then postulated as real, the never ending story ... to date.
No Fraud just politics.
Posted on 10-08-2013 16:59 | By robin bell
Plonk.Your right about the rewriting of history bit.Have another read of your favorite book"Twisting the Treaty"again.Your co-conspiritor Crazyhoss claims the Titfords were denied Natural Justice,when in actual fact they were paid current market value for the farm,3.25 million we all agree it was a mess,but nothing like that has occured since.Natural Justice works both ways.I notice you all steer clear of more recent provable cases of land theft from Maori,by the Crown i.e Raglan,Bay of Islands Whitianga etc.Your claim that claims are never ending is just one more example of your paranoia. Robin Bell.
NOBODY HAS PRODUCED EVIDENCE OF SCAM CLAIMS
Posted on 10-08-2013 19:33 | By Peter Dey
Plonker, nobody has produced evidence of scam claims. The local Ngati Ranginui claim was not a scam. The Government evicted about 1000 Maori from their land without compensation because a very small number of the tribe took up arms against the Crown. All those evicted were denied their individual legal right as British citizens to defend themselves in court. Plonker should produce evidence of a scam claim if he has any. Individuals who steal money from Treaty settlements do not make the settlement a scam.
THE TITFORD STORY
Posted on 11-08-2013 13:44 | By crazyhorse
Anyone interested in this please take the time to read. http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/AllanandSusanvsTheWaitangiTribunal.html
ONE SIDE OF THE STORY
Posted on 12-08-2013 20:57 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse has given a reference to Alan Titford's side of his story. However Alan Titford proposed to sell land for housing that was very important to local Maori. Alan Titford wanted to ignore the wishes of local Maori. The Government wanted to avoid ongoing ill feeling in the area so they got Alan Titford to accept compensation, and cancel his plans. Governments now know that protests like Bastion Point and the Raglan golf course ended up with Maori protest being justified. Alan Titford wanted to carry on regardless of protest. The Government did not want to be proved wrong once again.
re crazy horse
Posted on 13-08-2013 07:36 | By kb
I read that Titford story shocking ,I see what you mean by corrupt
HUNTLY KOHANGA REO REPAID $800,000
Posted on 14-08-2013 18:32 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse referred to Huntly Kohanga Reo misusing $800,000. He described this as dishonesty. The money was first paid for a course the Kohanga was not entitled to run. The course was not run. The money was repaid. No dishonesty occurred.
Robin Bell
Posted on 17-08-2013 01:34 | By Crash test dummies
Farm land settlement, glad you say "paid fair money" i was waiting for that. You can not avoid acknowledging that Maori got a fair price when they accepted a few gun blankets and so on. Way back then Maori chiefs cod accept fast enough. On that basis the Titfords should now claim there farm back now. Spot the difference ...
TITFORD NOT PAYED FAIR MONEY
Posted on 17-08-2013 10:15 | By crazyhorse
The Titfords ended up with around $850,000 they had to go to Tasmania to escape the harassment, hows that fair.
JAFFA IS CONFUSED
Posted on 17-08-2013 11:44 | By Peter Dey
JAFFA seems to think that Maori Treaty claims are for land that they sold. Treaty claims are for land confiscated or taken deceitfully by the Government. Alan Titford was not happy but his land was not taken deceitfully. He was paid fair compensation. Maori owners of confiscated land received no compensation.
HUNTLY KOHANGA REO REPAID $800,000
Posted on 17-08-2013 14:49 | By Plonker
Only repaid when they got cornered on it, they were reluctant to do it. Says a lot.
Titford wanted to ignore the wishes of local Maori?
Posted on 17-08-2013 14:50 | By Plonker
Who cares about those wishes, it was his land. I agree with Jaffa that Titford should now claim it back under the Treaty settlement process.
A confused Jaffa.
Posted on 17-08-2013 20:28 | By robin bell
You seem to be a sniper waiting for an opportunity to pot someone.Sorry to disappoint,but I never claimed the Titfords got a "fair"price.Check it out.What I said was,they got"current market price"something Maori never get."Fair"is subjective.Obviously Titford thought it unfair that too is subjective.If you believe Maori have been treated fairly in years gone by so be it.I believe that N.Z.will never become the great nation we crave until the Maori people find the partnership promised in the Treaty.
HUNTLY KOHANGO REO
Posted on 18-08-2013 10:16 | By crazyhorse
Dey is happy with what goes on here, decide for yourselves. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10641297
Robin the Titfords
Posted on 18-08-2013 13:21 | By Plonker
Eventually you will realize when the Bell rings ... that "Market value" is a "fair Price" they are the same thing. But when you get paid twice or even seven times for the same thing then that isn't a "fair price". The Titford's then have been ripped off for a number of reasons, they were forced of and intimidated off their land, have not been able to join Maori with multiple claims (Titford's made no claims) of the same thing like Maori have, even create claims like Maori have for decades. NZ is a great nation and a great place to be in this world but as the saying goes ... "A land of sheep will be ruled by wolves ...". What you are seeing Robin (and Peter) is the beginning of an uprising that is starting to realize the depth and degree of creative/nefarious claims being put Government now
Robin Bell
Posted on 18-08-2013 13:33 | By Plonker
Pot who? Looks to me that Maori have got so greedy and excessive with the claims made that it then becomes blatantly obvious, is that the problem here for you, like being spotted for what it is?
Plonker loses the plot.
Posted on 18-08-2013 17:47 | By robin bell
Huntley Kohanga Reo repaid the money in question.No theft.Your cynicism is worthless.I notice your cobber Crazy has gone missing on that subject.You can't hide forever Plonk,you need to start answering some questions."We are waiting"
ALAN TITFORD'S TITLE WAS FLAWED
Posted on 18-08-2013 19:15 | By Peter Dey
Plonker says that it was Alan Titford's land, but the title to the land was flawed. The original purchase of the land by the Crown occurred in 1867 when the Crown was confiscating land and dealing deceitfully with Maori. There was always the possibility that the original title documents would be questioned.
NO EVIDENCE THAT TAURANGA SETTLEMENT WAS FRAUD
Posted on 18-08-2013 21:24 | By Peter Dey
Plonker and crazyhorse do not seem to like the decisions of the Waitangi Tribunal but the problems of Alan Titford and Huntly Kohanga Reo have not actually provided any evidence of Treaty claim fraud, or that the Tauranga Treaty settlement was fraud.
Fee Simple
Posted on 18-08-2013 21:34 | By Plonker
That means that the title is correct at face value it is accepted, the only option left is to go to the Government and seek the title be corrected but this was not one of those cases, that was never done because it never could be. Add to that he got shafted and ripped off.
Robbin
Posted on 18-08-2013 23:17 | By Plonker
What you missed (selective reading0 was that I said that "Only repaid when they got cornered on it, they were reluctant to do it. Says a lot." Please tell me where it says "Theft?" as I believe that isn't in there so what do you know that you are not telling? Would you like me to tell you what really happened in the case?
Sorry Apologist
Posted on 18-08-2013 23:58 | By crazyhorse
Plonger does not have to answer any questions, anyone want to know the truth.google (Titoki Black suspended), maybe look for article on kings niece,just because this gov't refuses to look for corruption in maori run tax payer funded (educational) or any other maori only schemes does not mean its not happening, take a look for your selves, i see that distemper shot has done nothing to stop you yapping Bell, still need to drink lotsa water and chase the postman???
Plonker lays down a challenge
Posted on 19-08-2013 11:04 | By robin bell
all be it with no evidence again.as I said before the Titford case was a mess.Nothing like it will or can ever happen again, you know this.The whole saga ended with the Titfords getting due process and 3.25 million.Market price is not necessarily a fair price in mind of the seller.It is subjective.Allan Titford claims that the whole process was corrupt.He needs to put his claims to the court,but like you he believes they are corrupt too.Your claim that Maori "create"claims is often repeated by you with no hard evidence,it is therefore meaningless rubbish.Sheep and Wolves may sound dramatic but it too is meaningless.
ALL RUMOUR AND NO FACTS
Posted on 19-08-2013 16:37 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse believes there is corruption in Maori run organisations. There is probably corruption in many organisations, Maori and non-Maori, but it does not become fact until somebody produces evidence. Google Titoki Black, as crazyhorse suggests, and the only fact is that she has been suspended. Everything else is unsupported rumour. If Alan Titford has solid evidence to support his case he can take the Government to court. He does not need the Waitangi Tribunal.
HOUSING SUBDIVISION WAS A PROBLEM
Posted on 19-08-2013 17:36 | By Peter Dey
Maori burial sites on Alan Titford's farm were not a problem while the farm was not subdivided. But when he proposed to subdivide the farm for residential housing he had to have burial sites carefully identified which he did not do.
Solid evedence
Posted on 19-08-2013 21:39 | By crazyhorse
Allan Titford had solid evidence, he owned the land legally.
Action and Reaction,
Posted on 20-08-2013 13:30 | By robin bell
Crazy and Plonker seem to think they can fool people by ducking questions.You and your fellow anti Treaty anti everything else brigade make the accusations,we respond.When you refuse to answer our questions you lose what minute credibility you have.The inference you make when you accuse Maori of scam claims is an accusation of theft.It is akin to slander.You provide no evidence and simply move on to the next.You claim Maori are greedy and thier claims excessive,yet ignore factual figures.I'm not sure where you think you'r going with all this rubbish,but if you believe the majority of people will fall for the "philosophy"of conspiracy you are badly mistaken.
HERE WE GO AGAIN
Posted on 21-08-2013 08:18 | By crazyhorse
For anything to come out of the Huntly Kohango Reo in terms of justice, there would have to be an investigation,will there be,?NO!!, when moral posturing is replaced by an honest assessment of the facts we will, or would, or should get justice, also Bell you have not answered my question about the money that was taken by the kings niece, she has been asked to pay it back, you and Dey seem quiet on this, also on Titford, he laid complaints with police and the gov't, nothing was looked at, all swept under the carpet by Margaret Wilson, all this is available information not made up, look for yourselves.
Oh Dear wrong angle on it people ...
Posted on 21-08-2013 12:13 | By Plonker
Robin and Peter seem to think they can fool people by ducking questions and misleading information. The pro-treaty anti everyone else brigade make accusations, you don't have anything new! Answers to date add nothing new, refuse to answer the obvious, no credibility to date then it gets worse… Clearly most claims by Maori are not real and not been challenged with facts. You provide no evidence and simply skirt around anything difficult like the truth, just moving on to the next claim Maori have made up, they are non-existent/excessive, you ignore science, facts and figures. I'm not sure where you think you're going with all this except self benefit, but once there's nothing left you may consider stopping for a breather? If you believe the majority of people will not see it all for what it is you are badly mistaken, that is what you are having a challenge with.
excellent
Posted on 21-08-2013 19:34 | By ow
Keep up the conversation - it is informative for the rest of us
TITOKI BLACK HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH NO CRIME
Posted on 21-08-2013 19:47 | By Peter Dey
Titoki Black has been suspended from her position but the National Kohanga Reo trust is still discussing her situation. What this means is that accusations that she has committed some offence, or that money has been taken illegally are simply unjustified rumours at present. There is no evidence that any crime has been committed.
No Novelty.Plonk.
Posted on 21-08-2013 21:01 | By robin bell
Just a reminder Plonk,When and where has the Raglan claim by Maori been disproven?ANSWER please.You made the statement now back it up with proof.Your statement "clearly most claims by Maori are not real and not being challenged with facts"needs proof also.Thats PROOF we need Plonker.As for your mate Crazy's rediculous question and answer regarding Titoki Black,even a dumb horse should know under N.Z.law a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Proof of course is a concept alien to horses and clowns.Just one more question Plonk.Did you ever get caught copying at school? Robin Bell
THERE HAS BEEN NO HUNTLY KOHANGA THEFT CONVICTION
Posted on 21-08-2013 23:07 | By Peter Dey
The accusation of theft at Huntly Kohanga was made in April 2010. The king's niece denied accusations against her at that time. Nobody has ever been convicted of any theft from the Kohanga at that time. What we have are only rumours not supported by any facts.
THE ALLAN TITFORD TRAGEDY
Posted on 21-08-2013 23:41 | By Peter Dey
Allan Titford was totally unfairly treated by his Maori neighbours and the Government but he created his own problem with plans for subdivision that cut right across long held local beliefs about reserves on his property, and ancient burial sites. Because he had a title deed he expected the police and the Government to batter the locals into submission on his behalf, even though he was provoking their anger.
Suspension
Posted on 22-08-2013 08:30 | By YOGI BEAR
Well that does not happen for nothing.
Raving again Bell
Posted on 22-08-2013 08:33 | By crazyhorse
Plonger talks about most claims,not all, where does he talk of Raglan,you and Dey are the ones who want to stick to facts so stick to them. Stop going around in circles, your just frothing at the mouth and your comment shows that, people read these comments, please remember that,
Robbin NZ
Posted on 22-08-2013 08:33 | By YOGI BEAR
Well I think Raglan was ok, I think Wigram was ok as well. Cant see that the rest are fair, nothing in NZ real history to support a lot of what IWI claims to have otherwise have happened.
gov't rewards genocide and cannibalism with tax payers dollars
Posted on 22-08-2013 18:15 | By crazyhorse
This about sums up what we have been talking about, please read. http://1law4all.co.nz/2013/08/21/government-rewards-genocide-and-cannibalism-with-taxpayer-dollars/
TAURANGA TREATY SETTLEMENT IS FULLY DOCUMENTED
Posted on 22-08-2013 23:05 | By Peter Dey
Plonker says that most claims by Maori are not real. The Tauranga, Tainui, and Tuhoe Treaty settlements are well documented. Does Plonker think these settlements are not justified? If the Titford farm and Huntly Kohanga are the worst that people can find to criticise then it does seem that most Treaty claims are real and justified.
TITOKI BLACK HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH NO CRIME
Posted on 22-08-2013 23:46 | By Plonker
Not yet anyway
Claims proof as fudged
Posted on 22-08-2013 23:59 | By Plonker
Come on Robin, you already know the answer to that, simple example is: no one objective and independent resides on the Waitangi Tribunal, second No claimant has independent and objective review and critic over it, third no claim is able to be looked at during the whole process until it pops out the other end. In other words the process goes on behind closed doors, and the only reason for that is to keep out anyone else who knows thee truth until it is to late. In fact if Maori are 'SOOOOO” confident that the claims made are real then why not throw open the doors for all to see what is going on, why and how then let the public judge the claims for what they really are, I dare you.
genocide and cannibalism
Posted on 23-08-2013 00:14 | By Plonker
Crazy horse, you are indeed correct, although the predictable reply here will be somewhere off in never-never land somewhere.
NO CONVICTION
Posted on 23-08-2013 08:10 | By crazyhorse
Can't be a conviction unless there is a police investigation, WHY IS THERE NOT?????even finance companies with ex treaty troughing negotiators are held accountable. the national kohanga reo trust has told the kings niece she has to pay back the money she took , that's tax payer money Dey, where else could this happen, say im working in a shop and take $100 bucks out of the till for my self thats theft, please explain the difference.
THE CONSTITUTIONAL REVIEW BOARD A FAIR CROSS SECTION OF NZ'ERS
Posted on 23-08-2013 09:16 | By crazyhorse
I have been thinking of an example to use to show how the gov't gets things done that polls show we don't need or want, please remember this is suppose to be a group made up of 12 average kiwi people. prof John Burrows-retired judge,Tipene O'regan Ngai tahu negotiator , Peter Chin lawyer mayor, Deborah Coddington delusional propagandist (sort of like a born again christian!)? Michael Cullen Tuwharetoa negotiator??????,John Luxton done a bit of fundraising with Tuku Morgan in the Waikato ???,Bernice Mene ex silver fern all round nice person, Dr Leonie Pihana maori activist???,Hinurwa Poutu maori activist???,Prof Linda Tuhiwai Smith maori activist in university studies?????,Peter Tennant mayor of New plymouth, and i will save the best for last Dr Ranganui Walker maori activist and member of the Waitangi tribunal, this is how Dey and Bell are untouchable, how we are set up to fail,
TAIL WAGGING THE DOG
Posted on 23-08-2013 16:14 | By crazyhorse
After world war 2 Germany changed their voting system to what we call MMP,mixed member proportional representation, this was to stop another nightmare as in Hitler and his small fascist group, it was soon copied by many other countries including NZ, the idea is for the votes to end up mirroring the general population,the reason for the change to MMP in NZ was to stop any one small group of people or individuals going against the wishes of the majority as in a (constitutional review!!), who asked for it, THE MAORI PARTY DID,behind closed doors with Key,the maori party got 31,000 votes, Tariana Turia got only 3,221 mmp not for me!!
STILL NO EVIDENCE OF TREATY CLAIM FRAUD
Posted on 23-08-2013 19:56 | By Peter Dey
The original letter still stands unchallenged. The Tauranga Treaty settlement is justified, and the 1865 land confiscations have been a financial benefit to taxpayers ever since. Nobody has provided any evidence here of fraudulent Treaty claims. Allan Titford could not prove that the Waitangi Tribunal made a false decision. The Huntly Kohanga Reo has nothing to do with the Waitangi Tribunal.
BY PETER DEY
Posted on 23-08-2013 22:56 | By crazyhorse
WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT, I THINK YOU HAVE GONE MISSING IN ACTION?????.
ACUSATIONS ARE NOT EVIDENCE
Posted on 24-08-2013 10:03 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse asks why the police have not investigated accusations of theft against the National Kohanga Trust. The reason is that nobody has produced any evidence of wrongdoing for the police to act on. All we have had are unsupported rumours.
YOU TREAT US LIKE IDIOTS
Posted on 24-08-2013 10:29 | By crazyhorse
Everyone keeping up with this thread would have read and checked out what happened here, if this is an example of how you think a tax payer funded educational program should be run there's no much more to say.
WHY THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL IS NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
Posted on 24-08-2013 10:57 | By Peter Dey
Plonker asks why the Waitangi Tribunal is not open to the public. The answer is that the claims process already takes too long. It has been going on for the last 25 years. The National Government wants it over and done with. Allowing poorly informed members of the public to make submissions would make the claims process even longer. Full Treaty settlement reports are tabled in Parliament.
No public at the claims?
Posted on 24-08-2013 16:08 | By Plonker
Good argument there Peter, to avoid delay (with the truth being excluded) and so that the payouts can be speed up instead. Thanks Pete that about sums it all up
WHY THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL IS NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
Posted on 24-08-2013 18:38 | By crazyhorse
Your untouchable on this subject, the treaty industry is a well oiled and security sealed machine, the information released in parliament is in dollars and the land given, what about the history used to prove these claims, the waitangi tribunal deems a lot of this info to dodgy oops sorry i mean to (SENSITIVE) for the general public to view, maori deal with the crown not us, but who pays the claims Dey?, oh yeah us, the historians used to produce the goods for the waitangi tribunal are payed a fortune,(but)!! is their research factual and a true version of what, where, who and what really happened, well Dey your safe because the truth is know one can find out otherwise, i see that Twisting The Treaty is one of NZ's top selling books now, people just lapping up the truth, amazing nothing said by your superior historians?
POORLY INFORMED PUBLIC NOT TRUTH IS EXCLUDED
Posted on 24-08-2013 20:57 | By Peter Dey
Plonker the truth is not excluded from the Waitangi Tribunal. A report of every Treaty settlement is tabled in Parliament. You still have not produced any credible criticism of any Treaty settlement. So talk about truth excluded is unsupported waffle. Poorly informed public are completely unhelpful.
STILL NO CREDIBLE CRITICISM PRODUCED
Posted on 25-08-2013 08:58 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse shows clearly why it would be a waste of time having the public at Treaty claim hearings. He objects to Treaty settlements but he produces no credible evidence to deny any settlement. He still can produce no credible criticism of the Tauranga Treaty settlement. He says that "Twisting the Treaty" has evidence of Treaty claim fraud but in fact it has none either.
THE TAXPAYER STILL BENEFITS FROM LAND CONFISCATIONS
Posted on 25-08-2013 09:09 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse says that we pay for Treaty claims but in fact as pointed out in the original letter Treaty compensation is less than 50% of what was taken. This means that the taxpayer is still getting the financial benefit of over half the value of confiscated land. Taxpayers are still earning more from confiscated land than they are returning in compensation. There is no gravy train.
Expertise?
Posted on 25-08-2013 11:01 | By Plonker
Good on ya Peter, you don't agree with anyone else's opinion on Treaty creative Claims so they are not allowed to go. Sounds like you like only the sound of your own voice for Treaty settlements.
That was easy (HOW RIDICULOUS
Posted on 25-08-2013 11:07 | By crazyhorse
Thanks for that Dey, i wont even have to answer those comments, people will take out of them what they will,when they pick themselves off the floor after a laughing fit.
THE COST OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS TO THE GOVERNMENT IS SMALL
Posted on 25-08-2013 11:43 | By Peter Dey
The total cost of all Treaty settlements over the past 25 years is $2 billion according to the Office of Treaty Settlements and the book "Twisting the Treaty". Government spending is currently $100 billion per year. $2 billion over 25 years is very small indeed.
At last Plonker.
Posted on 25-08-2013 13:06 | By robin bell
You finally use the right word."Opinion"There is no room for it sorry.Facts are all that matter.As usual you produce none,because you have none.You and your fellow conspirators never dispute Peters figures because you know you can't.You ignore recent proven cases of land theft,because you know they destroy your credibility.No gov't can operate on heresay evidence such as that you and your mates proffer up.Historians and other credible professionals can be the only reference to go by.Weekend authors and other amateurs will never be acceptable, People who do not agree with your wayout viewpoint are subject to the usual meaningless vitriole.Peter Dey sticks hard and fast to the truth,that is why Crazyhorse says he is untouchable,the TRUTH always is Robin Bell.
THE MAORI PARTY IS NOT A TAIL WAGGING A DOG
Posted on 25-08-2013 13:20 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse describes the Maori Party as a tail wagging the National Party dog. In return for Maori Party support the National Party agreed to a Constitutional Referendum. The Maori Party has absolutely no power to change the New Zealand constitution. The Constitutional Advisory Panel can change nothing. They have been given the task of passing on public opinion about the constitution, and nothing else. The Government will only change what Pakeha voters want to change, and nothing else.
gov't rewards genocide and cannibalism with tax payers dollars
Posted on 26-08-2013 08:44 | By crazyhorse
When Ngati Toa made a claim for the loss of their maritime empire over Cook Strait, the Waitangi Tribunal, which is usually indulgent to any claim, turned it down. This was a rare act of common sense on the part of the Tribunal as, in so far as Ngati Toa, under the leadership of its cannibal chief, Te Rauparaha, exercised any 'domain” over the waters of Cook Strait, it was for the purpose of leading his war canoes across the water from Kapiti Island to kill, cook and eat the tribes of the South Island. Ngati Toa had captured Kapiti at the end of their murderous march from their place of origin at the Kawhia Harbour in the Waikato. However, when Treaty Minister Christopher Finlayson conducted his secret negotiations with Ngati Toa without any input from the public, he overrode the Waitangi Tribunal's refusal to grant compensation 'for the loss Ngati Toa's maritime empire over Cook Strait” and decided to throw in an extra $10 million of taxpayers' money as undeserved compensation for this right of Ngati Toa's warriors to use Cook Strait as a waterway on their missions of cannibalism and genocide.
READ THE FULL STORY ABOUT THIS
Posted on 26-08-2013 08:54 | By crazyhorse
Google 1law4all, get into site and hit the blog page, its the first blog to come up, make your own minds up.
CALL FOR ROTORUA TO BA RUN BY MAORI!
Posted on 26-08-2013 12:20 | By crazyhorse
Rotorua should be run by Maori, a woman standing for election as mayor of the city says. Janine Bosma said she would like to see Rotorua District Council replaced by a Te Arawa Tribal Council. But she would not say how she thought Pakeha electors might be represented under that arrangement.
la La land and some ..
Posted on 26-08-2013 14:23 | By YOGI BEAR
Come on Peter it has been sitting in the media obvious as for a few years now. Get up with the play.
GENOCIDE AND CANNIBALISM BEFORE 1840 ARE IRRELEVANT
Posted on 26-08-2013 19:01 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse and 1law4all are in denial over the Treaty claims process. Events before 1840 are irrelevant. The fact that Ngati Toa Rangatira committed atrocities is tragic but in 1840 Ngati Toa Rangatira did have a Cook Strait marine empire. That is fact. Treaty settlements are based on events after 1840. Chris Finlayson has no mandate to consider events before 1840 in Treaty settlements.
re;THE TAXPAYER STILL BENEFITS FROM LAND CONFISCATIONS
Posted on 27-08-2013 07:33 | By kb
Taxpayers ? do mean the maori taxpayer or the pakeha taxpayer, we all pay taxes,you, me ,wether we work,on dole or on a benefit, when you go to kfc 15% is tax?? we all get be the benefit of it then, but no you want it for a selected few, that few are the gravy train! With names like Peter Dey and Robin Bell ,I've probably got more maori in me than you.
.
Posted on 27-08-2013 12:48 | By robin bell
Crazyhorse and Co.rely heavily on the degrading propaganda put out by One N.Z.Foundation and 1 law 4 all (dont be fooled by the emotive names)In order to emphasise the creation of a new political party,they resort to exaggerated,heresay statements by a superstitious fisherman Worser Heberley.(who?).Anthropophagy is the least researched area of Anthropology for very good reason,relying as it does on myth,legend and superstition.If as claimed,wholesale slaughter and cannibalism was rampant among Maori,how could they have possibly increased in number from an estimated 300 to 150,000+ around 1800.Given the high infant mortality in all races at that time and the losses in battle,something does'nt add up.No doubt my favorite horse will consult one of its conspiracy blogs and come up with a fanciful answer.Can't wait. Robin Bell
Waky Waky Peter
Posted on 27-08-2013 13:04 | By YOGI BEAR
Is the treaty shams are all "after" 1840 then does that mean Maori "have no claims prior to that"? Sounds like the first bit of truth you have been able to muster so far Peter.
AGAIN NO EVIDENCE OF TREATY CLAIM FRAUD
Posted on 27-08-2013 13:27 | By Peter Dey
The information that crazyhorse provides about genocide and cannabilism is not evidence of Treaty claim fraud because it is all about events before 1840. Treaty claims are about events after 1840. Anti-Treaty campaigners are confused and illogical when they ignore the difference between before 1840 and after 1840.
ALL TAXPAYERS BENEFIT AND MAORI DESCENDANTS LOSE
Posted on 27-08-2013 16:25 | By Peter Dey
kb, more than $100 million of land (in 2013 dollars) was confiscated in Tauranga in 1865, and $50 million has been returned. The Government still has more than $50 million taken from Maori which is worth $1 million a year at a rate of 2% a year. All taxpayers, Maori and non-Maori, share this benefit. It has been stolen from all descendants of Tauranga Maori.
No gravy Train
Posted on 27-08-2013 20:07 | By robin bell
for me kb.As usual you've got it all wrong.You probably have got more Maori in you than I have.Its not about me or you,its about justice something you seem to have trouble understanding,like your mates.Instead of allowing your prejudice to rule your head,take a little time to check the real facts.Horses and clowns will put you crook every time. Robin Bell.
All claims are fake
Posted on 28-08-2013 09:09 | By YOGI BEAR
Unless proved otherwise, the onus is upon the claimant to prove the claim. Now Peter I am sure you will accept that then say the Waitangi Tribunal has accepted them, but the truth of it is that then leads us all back to the obvious problem that the process then is not open and transparent for all to see, so you see Peter it is not for me to prove that "You are wrong" it is up to you to prove that you are right ... good luck mate, you are a gone burger on that one.
constitutional review
Posted on 28-08-2013 13:42 | By crazyhorse
Mr Dey you have not said if you are happy with the make up of the review board,do you think they are an honest cross section of kiwi????? If so why?
PEOPLE WHO CLAIM FAKE SHOULD PROVE IT
Posted on 28-08-2013 14:00 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR, all of you people are claiming that Treaty settlements are fake. You produce no evidence in support of this. The evidence that settlements are not fake is contained in the settlement reports. If you find nothing fake in these reports then wanting to be present for all settlement discussions is just futile desperation.
FIND SOMETHING IN THE TAURANGA-MOANA TRIBUNAL REPORT
Posted on 28-08-2013 14:13 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR should read the 500 page Tauranga-Moana Waitangi Tribunal Report and tell us what he thinks is fake. Nobody else has found anything fake in it.
CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL ONLY PASSES ON PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS
Posted on 28-08-2013 16:42 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse the Constitutional Advisory Panel has no power to make any change at all to our constitution. Their task was simply to collect and organise public submissions and pass these on to the Government. Anti-Treaty campaigners who want to argue about the members of the Panel have lost the plot.
YOGI BEAR DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SETTLEMENT PROCESS
Posted on 28-08-2013 16:48 | By Peter Dey
The Government does not want to throw away money in Treaty settlements, so it does its best to ensure that claims are justified. But settlements are less than 10% compensation so the Government can afford to give the benefit of the doubt. No professional historians have objected to any settlement. Anti-Treaty campaigners have no valid reason to object either.
PATHETIC DEY
Posted on 28-08-2013 19:02 | By crazyhorse
I'm using this as an example of how you and the gov't work, answer the question, is the constitutional review panel a fair cross section of NZ's easy question, even your lap dog bell should be ok with this one,this is,how things get done in this country,all against the other 85% of NEWZEALANDERS you know the ones that are not from aotaoroa or how ever it's spelled.
CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL ONLY PASSES ON PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS
Posted on 28-08-2013 20:51 | By crazyhorse
Untruth!!!!!!!these people went around NZ speaking to large groups of people on the need for a written constitution,i ask you again, would these people have got a true perspective of what the average kiwi wants, or needs or should at least have a say in, harden up and answer the question honestly.
PUBLIC MEETINGS DID NOT TAKE CONSTITUTIONAL SUBMISSIONS
Posted on 29-08-2013 10:05 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse is trying to make a debating point about something that is irrelevant. Submissions to the Constitutional Advisory Panel were not made at public meetings. They were made as answers to questions asked by the panel and submitted by mail or e-mail. Crazyhorse seems to be saying that the Panel made biased submissions. The Panel did not make the submissions.
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL IS NOT DOMINATED BY ANY GROUP
Posted on 29-08-2013 10:44 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, the Constitutional Advisory Panel has 1 Pacific, 1 Chinese, 5 Maori, and 5 Pakeha members. This means that the Panel, wisely, is not dominated by any one group, Maori or Pakeha. It has avoided the normal political situation where majority voting produces Pakeha domination. It is majority voting and Pakeha domination that has produced injustice to Maori.
CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL ARGUMENTS CHANGE NOTHING
Posted on 29-08-2013 11:37 | By Peter Dey
Arguing about the Constitutional Advisory Panel is just a side issue. It does nothing to change the fact that politicians and professional historians now accept that there has been a great deal of injustice to Maori because of Pakeha dominated Government, and that Treaty settlement compensation is justified. Nobody has produced any evidence of Treaty settlement fraud. Governments now want to prevent injustice before it happens rather than afterwards.
PEOPLE WHO MAKE THAT CLAIM SHOULD PROVE ITS NOT FAKE
Posted on 29-08-2013 14:57 | By YOGI BEAR
PETE, you people are claiming that Treaty settlements aren't fake. You produce no evidence in support of this. The evidence that settlements are fake is contained in the settlement reports. If you find something true in these reports then wanting to be present for all settlement discussions is just futile desperation.
FIND SOMETHING IN THE TAURANGA-MOANA TRIBUNAL REPORT
Posted on 29-08-2013 15:00 | By YOGI BEAR
PETE should read the 500 page Tauranga-Moana Waitangi Tribunal Report and tell us what he thinks is 'TRUE” in it. Nobody else has found anything truthful yet and been able to prove it with science, verifiable facts. Even Sir Aipene Ngati sais there was no outstanding claims remaining and that was in 1927. That speaks for itself now doesn't it.
CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL DOESN'T JUST PASS ON PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS
Posted on 29-08-2013 15:04 | By YOGI BEAR
Pete is wrong, Crazyhorse is right. The Constitutional Advisory Panel has an excess of power to recommend on our NZ constitution. Their task was simply to collect and organise public submissions and pass these on to the Government but instead they have indulged in consultation with IWI all over the Country, the result of a imbalance in the committee appointees has lead to this happening. The Pro-Treaty (real) campaigners who want to argue about the members of the Panel have got the truth of it sorted.
PETEE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SETTLEMENT PROCESS
Posted on 29-08-2013 15:11 | By YOGI BEAR
I am sure also that the Government does not want to throw away money into creative Treaty settlements, so it does its best to ensure that claims are justified. But settlements fail to be accountable to the NZ Taxpaying public, perhaps if the claims made were genunine and tabeld in public in an open and transparent way then the NZ Public would be more likely to accept the real ones and likely pay more as a consequence. Equally I completely understand why Maori want it all hidden behind closed doors. Of course no professional historians (Janet Wilmshurst is not close to that category) have had any chance to object to any settlement as no one knows about them until afterwards, how fair is that.
PUBLIC MEETINGS NOT THE CONSTITUTIONAL SUBMISSIONS WANTED?
Posted on 29-08-2013 15:29 | By YOGI BEAR
Crazyhorse is right, the 'selection” process of the Panel was selective and is in essences adding to the divisions by enhancing them. Pete is trying to make a debating point about something that is irrelevant. Submissions to the Constitutional Advisory Panel were not made at public meetings. They were made as answers to questions asked by the panel and submitted by mail or e-mail. Crazyhorse seems to be saying that the Panel made biased submissions. The Panel did not make the submissions.
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PANEL IS NOT DOMINATED BY ANY GROUP
Posted on 29-08-2013 16:09 | By crazyhorse
5 maori (activists)!!! 1 of them a member of the Waitangi tribunal 2 of the pakeha members are activists for maori and treaty (negotiators) and poor Coddington is a born again activist,these people were given the job of consulting and explaining to the general public on why we need the treaty of waitangi written into a NZ constitution, should not these people mirror the general population, bit one sided or is it just me, anyone else like to comment on this.
An answer for a Crazy Horse
Posted on 29-08-2013 19:23 | By robin bell
I'm happy with the make up of the review panel.Even though there may be bias with some,it is balanced by bias the other way.At least two maybe more are neutral.They have no power to make change.That rests with Parliament.If you had listened to Sir Micheal Cullen,instead of shouting him down,you would have heard him say just that.He made no effort to influence anyone either way.You and your fellow extremists will never be happy until you can load such panels with your own.Democracy is not about every Tom,Dick or Horse having a say on all matters.Its about voting for a representative,with as many losers as winners (usualy).You and your friends do not,nor ever will represent 85% of N.Zers you are far too extreme.On the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther Kings great speech,I am convinced the rebirth of the Maori people is the best way forward for N.Z. Robin Bell
STITCHED UP AND STACKED
Posted on 29-08-2013 20:12 | By ROCCO
JUST like a deck of marked cards but no magic or pretense with the CAP appointments here just blatant open shoulder tapping of the faithful.Overt cronyism nepotism and race card hijacking.Billion dollar baby territory.
NO PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS OBJECT TO TREATY SETTLEMENTS
Posted on 29-08-2013 20:14 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR, no professional historians object to Treaty settlements because all settlements are credibly justified. You have no proof of Treaty settlement fraud because there is no Treaty settlement fraud. Both Labour and National Governments believe there is no Treaty settlement fraud. Playing word games can not change the fact that you claim Treaty settlement fraud but have no proof of it.
THERE WAS NO IWI CONSTITUTION MEETING IN TAURANGA
Posted on 29-08-2013 20:38 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR and others who think that the Constitutional Advisory Panel was biased in favour of Iwi need to explain why there was only one public Panel meeting in Tauranga, and there was no Iwi Panel meeting in Tauranga. Those claiming Panel bias in favour of Maori are again mouthing without credible evidence.
PAKEHA MAJORITY DECISIONS CAN BE UNFAIR TO MAORI
Posted on 29-08-2013 20:50 | By Peter Dey
Crazyhorse, of course many Pakeha think that the makeup of the Constitutional Advisory Panel should be only 15% Maori, the same as the general population. However politicians and Governments now know that Pakeha majority votes have produced a great deal of discrimination against Maori. This is why wiser thinking now believes that there are times when we should avoid automatically outvoting Maori. The Constitutional Advisory Panel is one of those times.
ONLY PARLIAMENT CAN CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION
Posted on 29-08-2013 21:11 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR and crazyhorse getting themselves wound up over the members of the Constitutional Advisory Panel keep ignoring the fact that only Parliament can change the Constitution. The views of the Constitutional Advisory Panel can have absolutely no influence on changes to the Constitution at all.
TRIBES ARE NOT PUBLIC ORGANISATIONS
Posted on 30-08-2013 06:43 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR needs to bear in mind that Maori tribes are not public bodies. So just as in any negotiation between the Government and a private organisation discussions are not open to the public. Any agreement between the Government and a private body is reported afterwards. Maori tribes deserve the same treatment.
TREATY SETTLEMENTS ARE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE TAXPAYING PUBLIC
Posted on 30-08-2013 06:54 | By Peter Dey
YOGI BEAR is wrong when he says that Treaty settlements are not accountable to the taxpaying public. Treaty settlements are reported to Parliament and full reports with the reasons for the settlements are available publicly. This is the same as for any other Government spending. Anti-Treaty protesters are just complaining because they have no evidence to do anything else.
STILL NO EVIDENCE OF TREATY CLAIM FRAUD
Posted on 31-08-2013 12:27 | By Peter Dey
After 25 years of Treaty settlement compensation worth $2 billion why has no critic of treaty settlements been able to produce credible evidence of Treaty claim fraud. It should be obvious that there has been no Treaty claim fraud.
EVERY "REAL" PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS DISAGRERES WITH TREATY SETTLEMENTS
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:23 | By YOGI BEAR
PETER, presents no credible information, evidence or facts that 'REAL” professional historians object to Treaty settlements because all settlements are unjustifiable! You have no proof of any legitimate Treaty settlement because there is evidence and has been any. Noether Labour and National Governments have said that they are happy, understand, agree, evidenced any Treaty settlement made to date. Playing word games and hiding behind closed doors at the Waitangi Tribunal can not change the fact that you claim Treaty settlement frauds upon the NZ taxpayer, you have no proof.
THERE WAS A IWI CAP MEETING IN TAURANGA
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:23 | By YOGI BEAR
PETER and others think that the CAP is biased in favour of IWI, congrats on being up to date on that one at last. Peter still needs facts to explain why there was only one public Panel meeting in Tauranga, and there was no IWI Panel meeting in Tauranga. Apparently it was because little money was left because of all the meetings around NZ at various Marae where Non Maori were not invited. The CAP hot line even confirmed this and was not at all interested in advising even where these meetings were, who, when and so on
PAKEHA MAJORITY DECISIONS ARE OVER THE TOP FAIR TO MAORI
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:24 | By YOGI BEAR
PETER, of course many Maori think that the makeup of the CAP should be based on the percentage of Maori and their provable ethnic history, virtually all Maori are less than 50% Maori with many being 1/16-1/32nd or less. So one member would certainly be VERY generous. However politicians and Governments now know that Maori claims and actions to date have produced a great deal of discrimination against Pakeha, some day soon this is likely to end badly and Maori I am sure will wonder why even then. This is why wise thinking individuals see right through the scams postulated as 'real” when they are clearly not so. The Constitutional Advisory Panel is one of those examples.
ONLY PARLIAMENT CAN CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:24 | By YOGI BEAR
PETTE got that right, the members of the CAP is important so as to be seen to be carried out in a fair and impartial way, the warped views of the CAP can have a bad influence on the recommendations made. In addition the view of the CAP is very much degraded by being tainted before it starts.
TRIBES ARE PUBLICALLY ACCOUNTABLE ORGANISATIONS
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:25 | By YOGI BEAR
PETRI needs to bear in mind that Maori tribes are 'RECEIVING” public money so all negotiations must be open to the public. Maori tribes should not have secret meeting with Government as that fails to account to the NZ Public until way to late.
TREATY SETTLEMENTS ARE "NOT" ACCOUNTABLE TO THE TAXPAYING PUBLIC
Posted on 31-08-2013 14:25 | By YOGI BEAR
PETEE is wrong when he says that Treaty settlements are accountable to the taxpaying public. Treaty settlements are reported to Parliament AFTER the event and after the deed is done and some. The reasons for the settlements then don't matter as the story has been spun …. This isn't the same as any other Government spending where consultation Is part of the process from the start. Treaty-ites are not complaining because they have got away with it all and don't intend stopping.
KEEPING PAKEHA SUPREMACY
Posted on 31-08-2013 15:13 | By Peter Dey
1. The historical evidence shows that the English version of the Treaty is legitimate. 2. The scientific evidence shows that Maori are indigenous. 3. There is no evidence for over 25 years that Treaty settlements are a fraud. 4. The evidence of the Office of Treaty Settlements shows that settlement costs are not excessive. 5. So-called privileges for Maori are insignificant. 6. The scientific evidence shows that the Maori race still exists. 7. Historical Treaty claims were closed off in 2008 so there are no never-ending claims. 8. The only real reason for an anti-Treaty campaign seems to be that we have Pakeha supremacy in society at present and anti-Treaty campaigners want to keep it that way.
Dumpty Dee,Dumpty Dooooo
Posted on 01-09-2013 13:04 | By robin bell
Perhaps the all seeing,all knowing bear 'Yogi'should put up or shut up.Put up your evidence when claiming,'wise thinking individuals see right through claims'.No fudging now 'Yogi'names and evidence of thier research please.(Hope its not that book again)All claims are investigated and only legitimate ones acted on.The fact there are so many is an indictment on you not Maori.'YOGI and his fellow performers still refuse to dicuss recent proven cases of theft by the Crown.WHY?.The U.N. recognises that intermarriage is NOT a reason to deny ethnicity,therefore your constant reference to percentages is irrelevent and another example of your desperation.By the way'Yogi' did you too get caught copying at school,like your mate Plonker?Robin Bell.
When the bell rings ...
Posted on 01-09-2013 14:25 | By YOGI BEAR
But not yet for you, yes I have copied Peters scribblings and like any good teacher I have then had to correct all the errors and mistakes and sadly as a consequence the meaning has completely changed to the truth of it.
A Plagiarizing Bear
Posted on 01-09-2013 16:17 | By robin bell
Still fudging are we Yogi.No evidence,no facts,no truth.If you are a teacher as claimed,you should know that you have to prove to your pupils the facts and truth of things,otherwise they make a fool of you.You have to be creative,not a quality known to the average,hibernating bear even one who fancies itself a teacher.Just answer my question in my last comment.Should be easy enough for a clever bear like you.Robin Bell.
KEEPING PAKEHA SUPREMACY
Posted on 01-09-2013 21:19 | By YOGI BEAR
1=The historical evidence shows that the English version (Freeman version created after 6/2/1840 and in the Waitangi Treaty Act) of the Treaty doesn't translate to Maori, only the Littlewood does. It was translated into Maori 4-5/2/1840. 2=Scientific evidence shows Maori were the sixth indigenous in NZ. 3=There is no evidence in over 25-years that Treaty settlements are legitimate. 4=The evidence of the Office of Treaty Settlements shows that settlement costs are excessive running into billions of taxpayer monies every year. 5=Privileges for Maori are significant. 6=The scientific evidence shows that the Maori bloodlines are fading away. 7=Historical Treaty claims were meant to be closed off in 2000 but dragged out to 2008(the seventh close off in over 100 years) so there are never-ending claims repeated. 8=The only real reason for Maori elitist and supremacy type covert Treaty campaign seems to be that Maori want to return to their old ways
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